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Revision date: January 15, 2005

January 2001 (The Birth of the Sugar Quill)

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From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 12:46 am
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Poor Poor Neville and my encounter with Ginny
I guess you can tell where I am in listening to SS again by my posts lately,
but what I really want to know is, how come Harry, Ron, and Hermione seem to
leave poor little Neville all on his own after the disastrous
losing-150-points-in-one-night-and-now-no-one-will-talk-to-them incident?
He's not hanging out with them, and it doesn't sound like anyone else would
speak to him. Doesn't it seem awfully unlike Hermione in particular not to
take pity on him?

By the way, I meant to post this a few days ago and I forgot. In church the
other day, I was sitting right behind GINNY WEASLEY. I swear, this girl
looked EXACTLY like I picture Ginny. When she turned around for the sign of
peace, I felt like I was shaking hands with a celebrity. (I think she heard
me telling my dad who she looked like though, cause she kept giving me weird
looks.)
Kathy
(who has seriously considered posting something else about the whole shipper
debate just so she can use the subject line "Battle ships", but finds she
really has nothing to add)
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Wed Jan 3, 2001 11:38 pm
Subject: Just a small announcement
Okay, I am actually a little nervous about telling you all this, but I have
recently made my first foray into the world of writing fanfic. After the
recent discussion (brought up by me, I guess you can see why I was interested
now)about "missing scenes" fics, I decided to put my money where my mouth was
and write my version of what was going on offstage during GoF (from Hermione's
POV and R/H, of course). So, if anyone wants to read it, go here:
www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=directory-authorProfile&userid=17561
(My pen name is Elanor Gamgee--20 points and a smiley face to anyone who knows
where that came from!)
Kathy
P.S. Sorry if this is off-topic but I wanted to share since this group kind
of inspired me to write this series! (And by the way, the only reason it
makes me nervous is that I know there are so many good writers on here!)
eeek...scurrying away now...
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 12:40 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Just a small announcement
>Sounds like something from LoTR. A Sam Gamgee, and the House of Elanor?
>
>Simon.

Close...Elanor Gamgee was the name of Sam's first child (named after the
flowers, I believe, from Lothlorien, but then I have been rereading HP too
much lately to crack LOTR at all!)
And now, just to save this from being totally OT...incidentally, I am working
on convincing my husband that "Elanor" would be a good name for our first
daughter, since I am having NO luck selling him on "Hermione"...
Oh, and here's your smiley face, Simon: (:
Kathy
(note to self stated using Elanor Gamgee)
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 4, 2001 11:48 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Sibling rivarly, shipping and the rest of us...

>How many of you Ron-fans out there are part of a large family, i.e.
>lots of brothers and sisters, and also the babies of the family?

I am as much like an only child as it is possible to be and still have
siblings...my brother and sister are 11 and 16 years older than I am,
respectively. I never really had to worry about living up to them, which is
good, since I put enough pressure on myself (yeah, I relate to Hermione a
lot!).
However, I have an enormous close-extended family (I guess that's an oxymoron
but oh well). My dad is one of ten kids (Irish Catholic--what can I say?).
So I think that's part of the reason I love the Weasleys. I think JKR
captures perfectly the way big families seem to be so willing to open up and
absorb new people. The interactions between Ron and his siblings are some of
my favorite parts of the books.
So I am not sure where that fits with your theory, but there you go.
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: zsenya@y...
Date: Fri Jan 5, 2001 6:30 am
Subject: Re: Sibling rivarly, shipping and the rest of us...

--- In HPforGrownups@egroups.com, "Amy Gourley" <amy@p...> wrote:
> I am a Ron fan and I am an only child. Maybe I am a little jealous
of the
> Weasley family-I would have loved to have lots of brothers and
sisters. In a
> matter of fact, I would have loved to be one of the Weasley
siblings.
I am from a middle-sized family - three girls. I am pretty sure of
one reason why I love the Weasleys so much - all the boys! Jealousy! I
would have given ANYTHING to have older brothers growing up. I had
this image in my head that all older brothers would be Richie
Cunninghams and that is exactly what I wanted it (incidentally, he had
red hair, come to think of it) I love Ron, but I also just love his
family - there is just so much energy coming out of the burrow.
All of my books are on loan to various family members at the moment,
but doesn't it say somewhere that Hermione is an only child? If not,
Ithink we can safely assume it - if she had siblings, they would be
mentioned by now, don't you think?
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sat Jan 6, 2001 11:51 pm
Subject: [HPforGrownups] I love you guys...

This is kind of apropos of nothing, but I just wanted to thank everyone who
has read and reviewed my fanfic series. (Especially Penny and Ebony--such
nice comments and from H/H shippers too!) I was really nervous about posting
my stories, but I have to admit it has been really almost addicting to get
this nice little validating messages!
Anyway, sorry to be OT, but I just wanted to say how wonderful and supportive
this group is!
Thanks!
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2001 1:23 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Babes of Hogwarts (was: OT: Babes in Oz

>That sounds like a calendar. Does Harry just get one picture, or is
>he in every picture, posing with Cedric Diggory for January, Roger
>Davies for February, the Weasley twins for March, Viktor Krum for
>April, Sirius for May, Remus for June, Bill in July, Charlie in
>August, Draco in September, Snape in October, Tom Riddle (fifty years
>ago) in November, Hagrid with Xmas trees for December?
A-HEM! Just where is Ron is this lineup?
Kathy

From: zsenya@y...
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:00 pm
Subject: Re: Fin Fiction Help
--- In HPforGrownups@egroups.com, Ashley Kelly <ak928@b...> wrote:
> Well, I told myself that I would not read any fan fiction
until
> JKR had completed the series, but yesterday I gave in and decided to
read
> PoU and the four chapters of its sequel. Now, a former R/H shipper I
am
> questioning my loyalties.
> To even the playing field, can someone please give me a link
to a
> good fan fic that has an R/H slant so I can see which I prefer.
> Also, has Lori written any more of her series. I am hungry for
> more already. I really hope she has!
>
> Ashley
Ashley - here is a shameless plug for my own website, which has quite
a lot of Ron/Hermione stuff archived there (much of it has also
appeared on ff.net) http://www.sugarquill.com/flourish.html
Most of the stuff there is R/H during their school years, but some of
it is an older Ron/Hermione. I highly recommend stories by B Bennett
or Awakenings by Arabella as two good school age Ron/Hermione stories.
For adult versions, I'd go for Mrs. Weasley's Best Man series. I
also really like the story "The Healer" that has been posted at ff.net
by Crescent.
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:29 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fan Fiction Help
I just wanted to second this recommendation (this website is an absolute
treasure trove for the R/H shipper), particularly "The Best Man" series (list
groans collectively as Kathy mentions that *yet* again!) Also, anything but
Zsenya, but especially "The Shreiking Shack", which is my latest favorite.
Also, the "Star-Crossed" series by FleurHartz, which is very fluffy but
completely adorable.
Ashley, step back from the edge...don't go over to the dark side! (;
Kathy
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:57 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fan Fiction Help
Whoops! That was supposed to be "anything BY Zsenya"!
Definitely a case where a little typo makes a difference in meaning.
Kathy

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 10:55 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Ashley

>ASHLEY (who has not yet gone over the edge to H/H :) )

Yay, Ashley! Stay strong, for the forces of H/H abound...
Kathy,
R/H and proud (in case no one here has heard that before)

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 7:47 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lockhart's Valentines
Amy Z. said:
>I thought the valentine, minus the thuggish dwarf of course, was
>sweet. No one's ever told *me* my eyes remind them of a fresh pickled
>toad.

Personally I think it's one of the funniest moments in any of the books. The
mental picture of the dwarf tackling Harry and sitting on his legs while he
sings the valentine still makes me giggle uncontrollably.

Kathy
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 10:51 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Where JKR really stole her ideas from
Here's the first part of a booktalk I use for promoting "Wizard's Hall" by
Jane Yolen to students (I do the first part of this without showing them the
book):
The next book I'm going to tell you about features a boy who is 11 years old,
and he's going off to boarding school. But it's not an ordinary boarding
school--his is a school for wizards. Before he went to this school, he never
once thought that he might be a wizard. But then he goes there, and meets new
friends, and has adventures. He even faces the most evil wizard there is, a
wizard so evil no other wizard wants to say his name out loud. (Of course, by
this point, the kids are all looking at me like I'm totally out of it, and
muttering "Harry Potter, duh!" So then I say...) The boy's name is Henry and
his school is called Wizard's Hall...

Gets a reaction anyway. (Though Henry is more Neville Longbottom than Harry
Potter, and HP is definitely the better book, but then I'm not biased or
anything!)

Oh, and my other thought: Chitty Chitty Bang Bang was flying long before the
Weasleys' flying Ford Anglia.
Kathy

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 18, 2001 9:56 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Abstaining from fanfic

Well, Steve and Amanda and all you others who don't read fanfic, I admire your
willpower. I was about to lose it waiting for book 4 when I stumbled upon the
world of HP fanfic...and now I'm almost as addicted to the fanfic as I am to
the actual books. (Of course, I also swore to myself that I would never start
*writing* fanfic either...I think it's safe to say I have very little
willpower where HP is concerned!)

Kathy
(AKA Elanor Gamgee)

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:53 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Obession Quiz and Shipping personality test
Ebony said:
>Who knows? I'm having so fun writing "Trouble in Paradise"... maybe
>I'll enjoy my visit on the other side so much that I'll take up
>permanent residence...

Ah, yes, Ebony, it's not too late! Come toward the light...
Kathy
(AKA Elanor Gamgee)
From: morine10@a...
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 9:05 am
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Shipping
Ebony wrote:
>Again, writing R/H has been quite an amusing task. H/H >wouldn't have provided
half the personal entertainment. >For if this had been a tale about H/H, the
appropriate >abbreviation would have been simply P--Paradise.
H/H --Paradise? Oh that's funny - it was meant as a joke, right? <vbg> Hmmm.
You've raised an interesting question (in my mind anyway) what about H/H and the
problems they would have? Because they would you know! (Oh, I'm having all
sorts of E-vil thoughts LOL!)
Yes, put Elanor in as the counselor. Work your magic Elanor. I know you can do
it!!

-Mo
An R/H-er who isn't smug, never beat up an H/H-er, and would never begrudge
anyone their opinion. :)
From: "Ebony " <ebonyink@h...>
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 1:24 am
Subject: Re: Obsession Quiz and Shipping personality test
--- In HPforGrownups@egroups.com, Kathleen Kelly MacMillan
<kathleen@c...> wrote:
> Ebony said:
> >Who knows? I'm having so much fun writing "Trouble in
Paradise"... maybe
> >I'll enjoy my visit on the other side so much that I'll take up
> >permanent residence...
>
> Ah, yes, Ebony, it's not too late! Come toward the light...
>
> Kathy
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
> (AKA Elanor Gamgee)
C'mon, Kathy, you know me better than that!
Tell you what. I'll hire Elanor Gamgee as a marriage counselor for
them... how's that sound?
Again, writing R/H has been quite an amusing task. H/H wouldn't have
provided half the personal entertainment. For if this had been a
tale about H/H, the appropriate abbreviation would have been simply P-
-Paradise.
BTW, this would mark the third time in two days I've lost Aberforth's
Goat's challenge to not promote my ship. :-) Shameful, innit?
--Ebony

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 9:15 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Obsessiveness quiz

>What about the fact that my partner and I ordered TWO copies of the
>Goblet of Fire so that we could read them at the same time? Does it
>count that we went LOOKING for the Fed Ex truck from Amazon.com and
>seriously considered driving to town at 10:30 a.m. and buying another
>copy?

That's nothing; I had mine Fed-Exed to my hotel in Chacago while I was at a
conference (and still went to Borders at midnight in the hopes of getting it a
few hours earlier). THEN I skipped a party given by Scholastic (where they
were giving out copies of GoF) to stay in my hotel room and read it all night
(I even ordered room service so I wouldn't have to stop to eat.)

But then, I am 93% obsessed....
(;
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 9:23 pm
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ebony an H/H shipper? Who knew?
Ebony wrote:
>C'mon, Kathy, you know me better than that!
Hey, I can try, can't I? (;
>Tell you what. I'll hire Elanor Gamgee as a marriage counselor for
>them... how's that sound?
Oooo, good idea, she'll set them straight! (Having been privy to all those
secret moments in GoF and all...)
>For if this had been a
>tale about H/H, the appropriate abbreviation would have been simply P-
>-Paradise.
As I am unable to respond to this with anything but gagging, I am afraid I
shall have to refrain. <g>
>BTW, this would mark the third time in two days I've lost Aberforth's
>Goat's challenge to not promote my ship. :-) Shameful, innit?
Yes, it is. Maybe you H/H people are more vocal after all. (Of course, I can't
talk, having just challenged the H/H masses on the PoU list--maybe there
should be a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy over there for R/H-ers?
Say what you will, Elanor knows the truth...

Being very silly tonight,
Kathy
(AKA Elanor Gamgee)
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 9:58 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Future sacrifices?

Trina wrote:
>As a child I read many children's books in which a character I have
>loved died. And, yes, I was devestated when that character died
<snip>
>And, no matter exactly *who* it will
>be, I will be needing a box of tissues and major therapy from y'all
>to work through my grief.
>
>Trina
I'm with you Trina! I never have finished Little Women, which I started when
I was 10 and had to stop reading once I realized who had died (took me a
chapter or two)...If Ron dies I may have to take time off work to grieve...and
the sad part is that I'm not even exaggerating...
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:12 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fanon "ruining" canon

Penny wrote:
>Yep. As examples: I can read & enjoy Kathy's "Hermione POV in GoF"
>series that she's doing right now even though I would write a
>*completely* different Hermione POV of those scenes. <g> Similarly,
>Kathy can read & enjoy (?) PoU and TIP and maintain her canon views that
>H/H is "just wrong" and R/H is "destiny." <vbg>

Aw, shucks, thanks Penny. (And yes I do "read and enjoy" PoU and ASA very
much even if they are misguided!)
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:21 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Future sacrifices?


>Forget about Ron, what are you going to do when Harry dies at the end
>of book 7? I'd bet money he will.

Strangely, I don't think it would bother me as much. Yes, it would be a shock
and it would be upsetting, but not as devastating as if it were Ron. This may
be partially due to the fact that we see the story through Harry's POV, and
think how horrible it would be for him if Ron died.
Ugh, I have to go now, I can't think about Ron dying without getting a knot in
my stomach, so I have to stop thinking about it! (This is bad, isn't it?
Neil, does your clinic have anything to help with this?)
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2001 12:10 pm
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Another shameless plug

OK, I swore to myself that I would only do one shamless plug for my fanfic,
but I think we have established that my willpower when it comes to anything
involving HP is virtually nonexistent, so here you are. (Plus I am getting
addicted to reviews, so anything to feed the habit.)
ON to the plug: Part 9 of "Hermione's 4th Year" is now up. This is a series
of "missing scenes" from GoF from Hermione's point of view, and to the
surprise of no one who has heard me blather on, it's R/H. My goal was to show
what was *really* going on during GoF (grins in Penny's direction). So, if
you are so inclined,please read (pretty please?).
Here's the link to all 9 parts (and also a groovy picture of me being
librarian-esque, in case anyone wonders what this "misguided" soul looks
like):
www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=directory-authorProfile&userid=17561

Thanks
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2001 12:22 pm
Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's greatness

Flourish wrote:
>HA! J.K. Rowling herself is much more R/H than I. I
>mean, come on! You've got the hugs. You've got the
>rows about Krum. Harry's off mooning after Cho... How
>can you still hang on? ::weeps:: I am weak. I submit
>to the greatness of J.K. without question. Hermione
>and Ron belong together.
You know, I was going to respond to thi, but since everyone knows what I would
say anyway, and it does sort of speak for itself, I will just sit here and
grin knowingly.
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2001 4:34 pm
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron in fanfic land
Cassie wrote:
>But honestly, I find the fanfictions where Ron, upon discovering that
>Hermione is dating Harry or Draco or what have you, is so distraught
>that he flings himself off Gryffindor Tower to a horrid death below
>(and there are MANY), to be far more out of character for Ron than
>for him to have dated Hermione and moved on. Much has been made of
>his insecurity on this list, and I do believe he's insecure, by his
>grasp on self-worth is not *that* tenuous.
>
>* my 2 knutes! *
>
>Cassie

I agree to a point, Cassie (see? I *do* agree with H/H people about some
things!), but one of my biggest pet peeves are the H/H fics that don't deal
with the Ron issue at all, or deal with it too tidily. To me, the most
interesting thing about *any* relationship between any 2 members of the Trio
is how it affects the friendship among the three of them.
HOWEVER, I still think that it's not quite in Ron's nature to just "move on"
that easily. (Of course, I also firmly believe that Hermione, whatever she
thinks about Harry, also likes Ron back.) If I am ever brave enough to follow
Ebony's lead and write in enemy territory, I want to try to write an H/H fic
that deals with the Ron issue to *my* satisfaction, if to no one else's. The
only Ron-centered H/H fic I have read which really pleased me is "Friend
Enough?" by parker, which shows Ron dealing with the realization that Harry
and Hermione are on their way to falling in love with each other. I thought
it was very well done (even it it *was* H/H).

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who is hoping that shipping and fanfic are not going to be declared OT, as
that will leave her with very little to say
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sat Jan 20, 2001 7:50 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] The Ron in H/H issue
>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups@egroups.com =====
>Just thought I'd put this in...
>
>I do plan to deal more with The Ron Issue with regards to the H/H
>relationship in the PoU series. Whether it be flashbacks or alternate
>scenarios or other methods I'm not insensible of the possibilities and even
>necessities of a more thorough treatment of Ron's impact on my scenario.
>
>Lori

Oooo, goody! Looking forward to it, Lori!
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who is still waiting for someone to write that winter garden scene, or I might
have to take a crack at it myself

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 10:20 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Why is your favorite your favorite?

PoA is my absolute favorite, though GoF is definitely growing on me the more I
read (then again, I have read or listened to PoA roughly 20+ times at this
point, so it has an advantage). I agree with the reasons Dinah gave, but
also:
My two words: time travel. I'm an absolute sucker for that sort of thing.
The Patronus scene: still sends shivers down my spine when Harry realizes the
stag is Prongs.
The Shreiking Shack scene, which got lots of "too much plot exposition is a
short space of time" type comments from critics, but I still think was
brilliant.
The fact that the victory at the end is a secret one.
The fact that Hermione plays a bigger role than in the previous books.
Hagrid becomes a teacher.
Professor Lupin (but not because he's sexy, just because he's a good guy)
The Marauder's Map: brilliant
The fact that JKR took Scabbers, a character we had all taken for granted, and
made him the crux of the story
George's (or was it Fred's?) spot-in imitation of Percy when he gives Harry
the Marauder's Map (don't ask; it just makes me giggle)
Hermione slapping Malfoy
Hermione walking out of Divination

Suffice it to say, that if I were trapped on a deserrted island and could only
take one book with me, PoA wouold be it. I never get tired of rereading it.

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 10:38 am
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Shipping news

Oh, so much good stuff! Where to start?
First off, I have totally lost track of who wrote what at this point, so I
apologize for not attributing these quotes from other posts.
>I think Ebony was suggesting that *if* Ron knew (or Hermione told Ron) that
her
>feelings were for Harry and *if* Ron knew or suspected that Harry returned
(or
>*could* return) Hermione's feelings, would Ron not be a big enough person to
put
>his own feelings for Hermione to the side, considering that he is first &
>foremost friends with them both? IMO, it is not only acceptable but a show
that
>a person is a bigger person than to let petty jealousy stand in the way of a
>budding romance & a continued friendship amongst the three of them.
Yes, I buy this, BUT what I can't stand is the idea that Ron somehow doesn't
"deserve" Hermione. He shouldn't have to hide his feelings any more than
Hermione should. To say that Ron should forget about Hermione and go out with
Lavender or someone else who likes him is just as bad as saying the Hermione
should forget about Harry (assuming, of course, that she actually likes Harry,
which I don't think she does!) and date Ron instead.
>What I find strange is the implication by some people in the past (not you
>Elizabeth) that Hermione's feelings don't count. It seems as though some
believe
>that her feelings are irrelevant and what matters is whether or not Ron or
Harry
>likes her.
Though I'm strongly R/H (did you know that? (: ), I agree that what matters
are Hermione's feelings in the matter. Where I differ most strongly from H/H
people is that I think she actually does like Ron, and I think there is just
as much evidence for that as H/H people think there is evidence she likes
Harry. I agree that the fact that Ron likes her is not evidence enough to say
that she likes him. Nor is the fact that Viktor Krum clearly likes her
evidence that she has real feelings for him, even if she does have something
of a relationship with him. Hermione, like most 14 year old girls, is an
enigma at the moment.
>>Forcing Harry
>> to spend the rest of his life with anyone is really not very kind to him.
I
>> most object to the H/H pairing because I consider it a "shotgun wedding"
for
>> Poor Harry.
Well, that's a new take on the issue! But I think it goes along with what I
said earlier about Ron and Hermione. Saying Harry "should" be with Hermione
because she "likes" him (which, did I mention, I don't necessarily think she
does) is just as bad as saying that Hermione should be with Ron just because
he likes her.
>Unless Harry is a psychic empath or Hermione declares her
>> feelings directly to Harry, we can't really know what Hermione's feelings
are,
>> nor are they the focus of the story.
Ah, there's the rub. But, if we *did* know exactly what Ron and Hermione were
thinking, it would sure take the fun out of the speculation. The fact is, we
will never see enough of their relationship (whatever it is now and becomes
later, friendship or romance) to really know exactly what's going on between
them, because we see things from Harry's POV and he doesn't see everything.
Which, IMO, makes it more fun.
>> My ship pet peeve: the odd insistence that any of us are necessarily and
>> unequivocally right in our ship beliefs, regardless of Ms. Rowling's
statements
>> and/or canon writings.
Those of us with strong preference often say things like "those misguided
__/__ shippers" and tease each other, but I don't think any of us truly
believe that our humble opinions outweigh JKR's universe. As Ebony pointed
out recently, ship preferences often have nothing to do with the canon, and I
am sure that those H/H people will still be living in their little fantasy
world even after JKR has shown that R/H is the way to go (see? that was
teasing! <g>).
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
P.S. When I made those comments on the PoU list last week, I didn't mean we
had to start up the shipper discussions again right away, but I sure am glad
they're back, since I find them so much fun!
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 10:55 am
Subject: [HPforGrownups] From the good ship R/H

Elizabeth wrote:
>And maybe, just maybe, Harrykins and Hermikins and Ronniekins *all* don't
>belong together. Or maybe Harrykins and Ronniekins belong together. But it
>is all up to Ms. Rowlings, whom I believe is the Goddess of the Potterverse.
Yes, it's possible...but it would be so much more interesting to have some
romantic tension, of whatever kind, in the Trio. Even if they all do end up
with other people (which I think would be kind of sad in a way). They have so
much together that they can't really share with anyone else.
>because despite all of our ship debating, Harry, Ron, and Hermione are
>first and foremost *friends*. Ron has feelings for Hermione. Has anyone ever
>considered that he *might* step aside or tamp those feelings down?>
I think I reponded to this once already in another post, but I thought of
something else. I think it's entirely possible that Ron would do such a thing
(assuming of course, he was in a situation where it might be necessary, which
I think we have already established that I don't belive to be the case!) BUT
it would certainly not be right away and it would certainly still affect the
friendship of the Trio. I think that this is what I was trying to say in
reponse to Cassie yesterday. Even if Ron did date Hermione and then "move
on", as she put it, I think it would still affect they way the three of them
interacted, even if Hermione and harry never got together. It would have to.
Not sure who said this (sorry!):
>I must add to this that I don't believe any Object of Desire exists in Ms.
>Rowlings' Potterverse. Hermione as written in canon is not flawless (no,
>she's not!), and Ginny is um, uncertain (yes, she is!) and most Objects of
>Desire are quite deliberately described as such.
I agree! We shippers have put a lot of our own spin on the characters and our
perceptions of them (often helped by the fanfic). That's part of the reason
that I wanted to try to stay as true to the canon as possible in mine.
(Obviously I have put my own spin on things, adds Kathy quickly, before Penny
jumps in, but I am trying to keep it plausible and true to the characters as I
see them in the canon.) Not that there's anything wrong with this, mind you,
but I think it sometimes confuses things when people start discussing the
canon.
>I agree that Hermione is one of the brains of the operation. Ron is another
>brain of the operation, although of a different (but equally important) sort.
> Harry's blessed to have them both to rely on as friends.
I agree! And I think that one of the main reasons I moved away from
half-hearted H/H shipperdom into full-fledged R/H shipperdom is that fact that
many (not all) H/H shippers sell Ron short, IMHO. MOst H/H fics tend to set
up H and H as this perfect couple and then kind of throw Ron in as comic
relief, if they show him at all. I think Ron as a character has much more
depth than most people give him credit for, and quite honestly I am starting
to find Harry kinda boring. (Is that blasphemy?)

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 10:56 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Ron in fanfic land: Terminally
>See, I'm trying to think of the most plausible way to just get RID of Ron in
>Song of Time. Now that Draco's more than just Evil Nasty Fascist Guy, Ron's
>just so superfluous.
>
>I'm currently tossing between just transferring him elsewhere (perhaps
>making him a student teacher at Durmstrang...) or killing him off. Anybody
>got suggestions
You're....*choke*....you can't be...*closes eyes in horror*...
I must go lie down now...
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 11:12 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Fanfic Tangent" (ship warning)


OK, I just realized that I already responded to some of Ebony's points from a
previous post (sorry I didn't credit you Ebony!), but I missed some, so here
goes:
>As I've said, we H/Hers are steeling ourselves for impending doom...
>oh, I mean, the Inevitable R/H Pairing. *But*... JKR has thrown me
>for a loop before. I hope that if Book 5 has any hint of romance at
>all, she doesn't go for the obvious. I hope she uses it as an
>opportunity to shock our socks off. Just my opinion.
Actually, IMO, pairing Harry and Hermione would be the easy way out. "The
Hero Gets the Girl" and all that. Plus, H/H is just too sappy for me.
There's no *spark* to it. It's just less interesting, to me anyway.
>Ron is a fun character to write! I think that of the Three, he's the
>most people-centered.
I agree with you on this! (for once!) Just like in GoF, when Harry and Ron
were fighting, Ron was the one who still got to be friends with Dean and
Seamus and all the others and Harry was the one left out. Granted, it was
partially becuase of his brothers, but Ron has also spent more time being
friends with the others. (Of course, being from a large family probably gives
you better interpersonal skills that being locked in the cupboard under the
stairs!)
>The more I write (I've got a couple of projects in the works), the
>more I'm convinced of my ship preference.
Same here, but different ship. (;

>She
>knows that they both take her for granted. Excuse my frankness, she
>resents the hell out of that. I rather think she'd also resent the
>conclusion being drawn that if Ron likes her, she should just fall
>into his arms.
I actually agree with this too! (And this is one of the things I am trying to
show in my story.) And that, I think, is exactly why she won't tell Ron that
she likes him.
>Let's wait to see what Hermione thinks in canon. For all we know,
>she might very wisely conclude that she'd rather keep her friendships
>the way they are... and continue to correspond with Viktor Krum.
Yeah, maybe, but that'd be so boring!
>Of course, my take on the interpersonal dynamics of the Trio at the
>end of GoF is summed up in a fic that Kathy recommended to me and
>here, "Friend Enough?" by Parker. It's on my favorites page, and
>I've been singing the praises of this author's three fics for the
>past week. (Kathy, to quote PoU, "you should know better than to
>give me such delicious leverage." ;-))
Well, as I said, I recommended it even though I don't *agree* with it. I just
really like anything that deals with Ron effectively, and that one does. (I
happen to think that the main thrust of that story, Hermione realizing her
feelings for Harry while he is competing in the 3rd Task, has no real evidence
in the canon. Sorry, Parker!) But it's still a very good fic. If I only
read R/H fics, I would never have enough to hold me over until Book 5,
unfortunately. So I have to branch out a little! :)
>--Ebony (sailing away merrily down the shipper stream on the SS H/H)
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
waving from the deck of the Good Ship R/H
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 11:20 am
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's feelings

I knew there was somthing else I wanted to say!
>I wrote:
>
>> (Of course, I also firmly believe that Hermione, whatever she thinks
>> about Harry, also likes Ron back.)
And Penny replied:
>So .... she likes them both? :--)

Actually, I think it's entirely possible that she likes them both, and not in
the Harry-is-the-love-of-her-life and
Ron-is-a-dear-friend-she-would-never-want-to-hurt way that most H/H-ers seem
to think. The overwhelming message I seem to get from the H/H crowd is that
if she liked them both and wound up dating Ron it would only be because he was
"the easy choice", as he definitely has feelings for her. I think it entirely
possible that she maybe could have feelings for them both, and maybe might
realize that her feelings for Harry are just a crush (collective gasp from H/H
shippers at such blasphemous thoughts) and that Ron is really the one for her.
I once again have to point to Arabella's "The O.W.L.'s" and Zsenya's "The
Shreiking Shack" as examples of plausible, working R/H relationships. And I
still think scenarios like that are much more likely than H/H, but I don't
suppose that opinion from me is news to anyone! <g>
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 2:10 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Intro : )

>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups@egroups.com =====
>Hi! : ) My name is Rina, I just joined the list about 10 minutes ago. <g>
Welcome Rina!
>I am a die hard Ron/Hermione shipper, and have been
>since the first book.
Whoo-hoo! Another one for our side! Be warned, Rina, that there is a very
vocal H/H element on this list. They can be very sneaky, so don't let them
convert you! <g>
>Fic wise, I read
>any couple, but mostly slash because I can't seem to find any good,
>well-written R/Hs. Help? <g>
First stop: www.sugarquill.com, which has a slew of very VERY good R/H fanfics
by Arabella, Zsenya, Mrs. Weasley, B Bennett, and others. Then, if I may so
humbly reference my own "Hermione's 4th Year" series on fanfiction.net, which
retells parts of GoF from Hermione's point of view. (You know, when I first
started writing fanfic, I didn't want to tell anyone about it and now you
can't shut me up. See what this list has done to me?)
I was going to suggest some others, but everything I can think of is already
on the SugarQuill site.
Have fun! Always glad to welcome a new R/H-er to the group.
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: zsenya@y...
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: Intro : )

Kathy - thanks for the SugarQuill plug - you know we are hoping to
see yours up there when you finish it! (I can put what's done
under "Stories in Progress" if you'd like...
From: zsenya@y...
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2001 8:16 pm
Subject: Why I love PoA
I just went to the Polls section and noticed that PoA is winning with
a 70% approval rating. That makes me happy because it is hands down,
my favorite so far.
Why? Here are just a few reasons...
1) Introduction of two of my favorite characters - Lupin and Sirius.
2) I loved the whole scenario of Harry running away from Privet
Drive. I was so happy to see him actually do that.
3) The ending! The ending is the BEST! The whole last 100 pages or so
of the book. I've read it numerous times and still, I'm glued to the
book (or the car seat, depending on whether I'm reading or listening
to the tapes). I don't think I've encountered a more suspenseful
ending anywhere.
4) Harry gets a family - of sorts
5) Hermione has a nervous breakdown - I don't think thats good - but
I think that its wonderful the way that JK Rowling deals with her and
allows her to recognize her limitations and strengths. It also seems
pretty clear to me that Hermione is smack dab in the middle of
puberty and JK writes it truthfully.
There's more, but those are the main reasons....
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:04 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Shipper Poll

Ebony wrote:
>Actually... as of 7:40 p.m. EST, we're winning. ;-)
>
>A pleasant surprise, actually. Penny's been telling me for months
>that the fandom is pretty evenly divided on these issues, but I
>always felt as if I was on the "underdog" ship. 36 fans are a drop
>in the bucket, but it's still grin-inducing.
>
>H/Hers--make sure you vote! (Though I do believe that the R/Hers
>will win. We're outnumbered!)

I guess it's all a matter of perception, because I have always felt
outnumbered as an R/H shipper (probably because the fanfic mostly seems to
swing H/H). Also probably because Ebony and Penny together roar loud enough
for a whole pack of H/H-ers! :)

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:10 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Intro : )

>Kathy - thanks for the SugarQuill plug - you know we are hoping to
>see yours up there when you finish it! (I can put what's done
>under "Stories in Progress" if you'd like...
Oh, I'm blushing...
Absolutely, I'd be honored.
(Ducks away to hide behind a book)

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Jan 23, 2001 12:17 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shipper Poll and No-Ship Complaints

>That's probably because we're right.
>
>--Ebony


Just had to respond by saying that I won't dignify that with a response. (tuts
loudly and marches away with a Hermione-like look)

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Jan 23, 2001 5:21 pm
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Ship Hits the Fan (long, but filled with brilliant insights)

(I've been waiting to use that subject line for awhile now!)

OK, first of all, WHERE are all the R/H-ers? At the moment, the Good Ship R/H
feels more like a rowboat, with me paddling furiously to get out of the way of
the wake created by the big gaudy SS H/H. Zsenya? Elizabeth? Thena? Little
help, please? :)

OK, Here goes:
Ebony wrote:
>LOL! Thanks for the compliment, Kathy!

Er...yeah, compliment...that's what it was....<g>

Ebony again:
>Recent readable fanfic lately is swinging heavily R/H.

Ya really think so? It does seem I haven't had to slush through as much as I
used to to find good R/H (or *any* R/H, for that matter!). Actually, I guess
you're right, because I haven't had to supplement my preferred diet of R/H
fics with so-so H/H ones for awhile now. (I have actually become fairly picky
about which fanfics I read now, which is a switch. I used to read anything
and everything. Now, it has to have Hermione, Ron and/or Harry in it [in that
order of preference, though I find I am preferring Ron more and more], the
minute I see a "new girl" my finger's on the back button, and the font has to
be legible. Maybe I'm getting old, but are some of those stories in tiny
writing or what? The last thing I need at 2 am, which is when I end up
reading most of it. Which is why "Hermione's 4th year" is entirely in Arial
14 point, btw). Also, of course, if someone else recommends something or it's
an author I know is good (even if, alas, they are H/H).

Ebony again:
>And Kathy, I'll bet the R/Hers thought they were off the hook due to Penny's
>carpal tunnel and the upcoming arrival of the littlest Linsenmayer.

Oh, I know better than to think that H/H-ers will ever be silent. Though the
"destroyer" rhetoric is starting to get a little disturbing, I must admit. I
know it's all in jest, but tell me, why is it that H/H-ers seem to see
themselves as missionaries of some sort? I hope you know I'm not picking on
you, Ebony, or anyone in particular for that matter, but it just seems to me
that the H/H crowd often manifests an almost manic to convert others. (Almost
like they're trying to convince themselves of the rightness of their
position...(;, sorry, couldn't resist throwing that in!). But seriously, I
have corresponded with several other R/H-ers off-list who have told me they
wouldn't participate in the shipper debates on this list because they
perceived the H/H-ers here as being, well, let's just say too vehement.
Obviously, I don't really agree, since I get into it with y'all on a regular
basis :), but I can't help but notice that the R/H ranks have gotten quieter
around here, even though the number of R/H-ers (at least according to the
poll) hasn't gone down.

Ebony again:
>I can't speak from the R/H perspective at all, but I'm
>sure there will be no terrible cry from the H/H battleship-cum-Carnival
>Cruise if H/H is disproven (partly because one of our theories-in-progress
>is "all roads lead to H/H"... but I digress).

And I don't think there will be a terrible outcry from the Good Ship R/H
either. We know where Hermione belongs; it's just a matter of her figuring it
out. (:

Ebony yet again:
>I think I've become one of the most vocal around
>these parts, but I don't have two horns growing out of my head.

Hmm, now I have to totally rethink my image of you, Eb. <g>

And again:
>I think the H/H image problem stem from the fact that we... I don't know...
>we post a lot more?

Gee, YA THINK? (Again, helloooooo, other R/H-ers...help?)

Ebony yet again (we knew she was loquacious!):
>You know, I never thought I'd agree with an R/Her on so much. Of course,
>deep down I really think Kathy is an H/H Prodigal, who will eventually tire
>of R/H Disorder and come on home. :-)

Not a chance, my friend. It never really did it for me in the first place,
and the more you try to convert me, the more I will stick to my guns with
Ron-like stubbornness.

Penny said:
>Neil! It was hilarious, but couldn't you have compared the Good Ship R/H to
>Titanic rather than our very own SS H/H?

Because it was just more appropriate, I suppose <g>. Maybe the Good Ship R/H
can play the Carpathia, and arrive the next morning to pick up the
survivors...

Ebony again:
>Many of the best H/H writers *do* deal with Ron. Just perhaps not to the
>satisfaction of some.

Exactly. And the very fact that it is termed "The Ron problem" should tell
you why this annoys R/H-ers so greatly.

All that said, I REALLY liked Penny's idea of the various ships as party
liners sailing along the HP waters. I have been thinking about the Good Ship
R/H: It's large and looks fairly rickety from the outside, but it's held up by
magic and is much more sturdy than some might think. It has chess sets
throughout and small explosions are considered a matter of course. It also
has a large closet full of shoes so Ron can demonstrate his shoe-tying
technique (if you don't get it, go read B Bennett's newest fic). Oh, and we
never serve Corned Beef on the Good Ship R/H.

You know, it occurs to me that part of the problem for us R/Hers is that we
don't have an Uber-fic the way H/Hers have PoU and DD/DS. (OH wait, there is
that one by Joanne something...though she's not very timely about getting the
parts out...)

There was a whole bunch more I wanted to say, but I'm tired of babbling and
I'm sure you guys are tired of me babbling too!

So, all are welcome to the Good (Rowboat) R/H--we can build on additions and
the magic'll hold it up!


Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 4:42 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: "I see no ships!"

>--Ebony AKA AngieJ (reporting live from the shipyard, where the
>new and improved SS H/H is being constructed... this time with
>plenty of lifeboats!)


Oh, Ebony, darling, it will never be enough...but don't worry, the Good Ship
R/H will be there to rescue you from the iceberg!

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
Self-appointed Captain (or Captain by Default, as the case may be) of the Good
ship R/H, which doesn't need house-elves, thank you very much, since it runs
on the magic of *True Love*

From: morine10@a...
Date: Wed Jan 24, 2001 7:10 pm
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] The Ship Hits the Fan -A Brilliant post

I had resigned myself to lurking but a true Gryffindor never leaves his or
her mates hanging....

Kathy wrote:
> (I've been waiting to use that subject line for a while now!)
>
Good one!


> OK, first of all, WHERE are all the R/H-ers? At the moment, the Good Ship
> R/H
> feels more like a rowboat, with me paddling furiously to get out of the way
> of
> the wake created by the big gaudy SS H/H. Zsenya? Elizabeth? Thena?
> Little
> help, please? :)
>

Aye, aye Cap'n. First mate Maureen reporting for duty!


> Ebony yet again (we knew she was loquacious!):
> >You know, I never thought I'd agree with an R/Her on so much. Of course,
> >deep down I really think Kathy is an H/H Prodigal, who will eventually tire
> >of R/H Disorder and come on home. :-)
>
> Not a chance, my friend. It never really did it for me in the first place,
> and the more you try to convert me, the more I will stick to my guns with
> Ron-like stubbornness.


Kathy will never turn, she is way too strong. (Use the Force, Kathy)
Besides our uniforms are much nicer. :)


> Penny said:
> >Neil! It was hilarious, but couldn't you have compared the Good Ship R/H to
> >Titanic rather than our very own SS H/H?
>
> Because it was just more appropriate, I suppose <g>. Maybe the Good Ship
> R/H
> can play the Carpathia, and arrive the next morning to pick up the
> survivors...
>

I gave Kathy permission to use this so we might be repeating
ourselves......*The SS H/H has packed on far too many passengers and not
nearly enough lifeboats.* You are all royally screwed. <VBG> :) I also see
you all stranded on a deserted isle, episode after episode looking to be
rescued. Each week you are visited by a "Special R/H Guest" who somehow
manages to leave while you all remain there with your bizarre theories and
coconut telephones....


> Ebony again:
> >Many of the best H/H writers *do* deal with Ron. Just perhaps not to the
> >satisfaction of some.
>
> Exactly. And the very fact that it is termed "The Ron problem" should tell
> you why this annoys R/H-ers so greatly.

Grrrrr.....


> All that said, I REALLY liked Penny's idea of the various ships as party
> liners sailing along the HP waters. I have been thinking about the Good
> Ship
> R/H: It's large and looks fairly rickety from the outside, but it's held up
> by
> magic and is much more sturdy than some might think. It has chess sets
> throughout and small explosions are considered a matter of course. It also
> has a large closet full of shoes so Ron can demonstrate his shoe-tying
> technique (if you don't get it, go read B Bennett's newest fic). Oh, and
> we
> never serve Corned Beef on the Good Ship R/H.
>


That *True Love* magic (second only to a Mother's Love) really is amazing!!!


> You know, it occurs to me that part of the problem for us R/Hers is that we
> don't have an Uber-fic the way H/Hers have PoU and DD/DS. (OH wait, there
> is
> that one by Joanne something...though she's not very timely about getting
> the
> parts out...)
>

LOL Captain Kathy! Our Admiral, Joanne, will steer this ship on the right
course!!


-Mo
First Mate of the Good Ship R/H
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 1:02 am
Subject: [HPforGrownups] All Aboard the Good Ship R/H
Mo wrote:
>Aye, aye Cap'n. First mate Maureen reporting for duty!
Welcome aboard! And just so the rest of you know, I have been assured by
First Mate Mo that the rest of the R/H crew is merely hiding under their
Invisibility Cloaks, saving their voices for the inevitable "We told you so!"
that we will have occasion to shout. <g>
Mo
>Kathy will never turn, she is way too strong. (Use the Force, Kathy)
>Besides our uniforms are much nicer. :)
She will make an excellent first mate. She knows her captain well. :)
Mo
>The SS H/H has packed on far too many passengers and not
>nearly enough lifeboats.* You are all royally screwed. <VBG> :) I also see
>you all stranded on a deserted isle, episode after episode looking to be
>rescued. Each week you are visited by a "Special R/H Guest" who somehow
>manages to leave while you all remain there with your bizarre theories and
>coconut telephones....
There's a fanfic in there, I think! (I'm giggling just thinking about it!)
Mo
>LOL Captain Kathy! Our Admiral, Joanne, will steer this ship on the right
>course!!
You got that right! We will navigate by the light of the JKR star and avoid
all those icebergs that seem to be plaguing the SS H/H (or whatever it's being
called at the moment)
Batten down the hatches! An enemy ship approaches! It appears to be a yacht
of some sort...and the crew are all wearing leather pants! It can't be...no,
it is...the D/H! All hands on deck!
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who wishes she had taken that sailing class in college just so she would have
more good nautical metaphors to use for this entirely silly but very fun
thread
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 1:14 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Shipping Party Boats ... Anyone for a Cruise?/menage a trois

>===== Original Message From HPforGrownups@egroups.com =====
>Ebony wrote:
>
><<Only two problems: 1) The R/Hers would never agree to it, and 2) we
>vocal H/Hers like to argue.>>
And Rina responded:
>Can't say much for the second point, but I'll contest the first one. <g> As
pretty much anyone who knows me expected. LOL It would be
an...interesting...solution.
I'll contest it too! I think it's an intriguing idea, and would love to see
something from this point of view that's *balanced* (i.e. not just FITD
masqerading as balanced). I don't mind this at all, as long as (let's all say
it together) Ron doesn't get shunted aside.
As for the second point, I think everyone on this list will agree! But I must
point out that we "vocal R/Hers" like to argue too...it's just that there seem
to be fewer of us...
The Captain of the Good Ship R/H stares out at the still night waters,
searching for the supply ship carrying hundreds of troops that she knows is on
the way. At her shoulder, First Mate Mo smiles bracingly. "Don't worry
Captain--they were probably just momentarily distracted by the glitz of the SS
H/H. I mean, the swing music alone would be enough to turn anyone's head.
But they soon realize that ship will sink." The Captain smiles, knowingly
that, though the Good Ship R/H may have a slight list to port, its mighty
canon (yes canon) will quell any foe.
Kathy
AKA Captain Elanor Gamgee
who is apparently far too into this for her own good

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 1:19 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] HP Cruise?

Scott wrote:
>You know, when I think about it there actually could be a HP
>cruise...I've heard such a thing before. The author is on board and
>fans are able to interact with him/her.
Oooooooo, what a great idea. How much fun would that be? Although we'd have
to make sure the H/Hers and the R/Hers were put in separate areas of the ship
or trouble could arise. Though, come to think of it...stuck on the open sea
with nowhere to run? Sounds like one of those sitcoms where the two
charactesr who hate each other get stuck in an elevator together and come out
friends (maybe *that's* how the Harry-Draco thing could be worked out...)
Kathy
AkA Elnaor Gangee
who is apparently getting delirious and should probably go to sleep

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 1:27 am
Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Harry Problem?
Cass wrote:
> *raises eyebrow* Why? I've seen it termed "The Harry Problem" when
>talking about R/H fic. Either way one member of the trio is going to
>feel left out. Obviously Ron would have bigger issues than Harry, but
>the issues remain nonetheless.
Really? I have never seen once seen that term. Can anyone say more about
this? I'm curious as to what people think the issues are with Harry, other
than that he would feel left out if Ron and Hermione were to sneak around
behind his back. I agree that the issues are there either way, and that's
actually why I think the whole shipper debate is interesting enough to suck up
hours of my time. <g> Seriously, if it didn't cause issues, it probably
wouldn't be interesting enough for fans to write thousands of fics about,
right?
Cass again:
><eg> I just have to say for my own self, and I think I speak for most
>H/H'ers here, if Ron and Hermione do wind up 'together', it won't
>diminish my enjoyment of the books at all. I'll just file it away
>with the house elves under "distasteful subplots that I really could
>do without, but will just ignore instead." And I'll still love the
>books.
And that's exactly how I would feel if it came out H/H. I would be
disappointed if it went that way, because the whole hero-gets-the-girl thing
kinda makes my skin crawl, and because, as we all know, I *love* Ron, but as
Ebony said, if JKR makes it plausible, I'll go along with it. But it won't
stop my from writing my own version of events either!
Kathy
AKA Captain Elanor of the Good Ship R/H
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 1:47 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Defensiveness
Penny wrote:
>>I always get the impression that it's
>shocking &
>> bordering on sacrilege to even "suggest" that there might be the
>slightest
>> possibility that Hermione doesn't like Ron back (or that they might
>not last if
>> they do get together). Is this just a misimpression on my part?
>(honestly
>> curious ...)
Well, Penny, I always get the impression that it's shocking and bordering on
sacrilege to suggest that Hermione could possibly end up with anyone less than
Harry (and since my feelings about Ron are probably pretty clear at this
point, you know why I have more than one problem with that idea). But I think
kimberly makes a very good point: both sides seem defensive to the other. As
someone who started out as a (half-hearted) H/H shipper before being converted
to the One True Faith <g>, I can vouch for that: I saw the defensiveness in
R/H posts then and I see it in H/H now. Just the nature of the beast I guess.
And kimberly wrote:
>There might be something to what you're saying. Kathy mentioned that
>some R/Hers tell her they're uncomfortable posting here because the
>atmosphere seems against it. I have heard the same. Maybe they
>perceive that they have something to defend themselves against if
>they post about it? I'm not saying that anyone has gone out of their
>way to make them feel that way, or even realized it was happening,
>and I may well have misinterpreted it completely and nobody feels
>that way. I'm just trying to give my honest view of what I think I'm
>observing. Please, by all means R/Hers - correct me if I'm wrong!
No, I think you've got it, at least as far as I can tell. (Like I said
before, I obviously don't feel the reluctance to post that most R/Hers seem
too, since H/H-baiting is one of my favorite hobbies!). But the impression I
get is that some people feel that this list is overwhelmingly H/H and that
their comments will just be ignored. Of course, we all know that part of the
solution would be for R/H-ERS TO POST MORE! (turns and barks at her crew, who
are all looking shamedly at the deck) No, seriously, I think a big part of it
is that we have...how many members now? It takes awhile to get up to speed
and it's hard for new people to just feel like they can jump right in. It can
be intimidating. I remember feeling that way myself when I first joined this
group...in fact, I was just telling a Reluctant R/H Poster (there's another
syndrome for you, Ebony!) that the moment I first truly felt welcome here was
when I really ticked off Penny with my "H/H and Why It's Just Wrong" treatise
last summer (grins at Penny, then ducks to avoid the several-inch thick
printout of PoU Penny lobs at her head). All I am saying is that this group
can be intimidating. I don't think anyone does it on purpose, and I don't
know what the solution is (except maybe for R/HERS TO POST MORE!).
kimberly:
>or maybe it's the terminology that has been
>tossed around (disorders, destroyers, etc.). I'm quite happy myself
>that you've been steering away from them, because down here floating
>without a ship in the waters of ambiguous anticipation it's kinda
>scary to see two big ships face of in battle terms.
Awww, now look, we've scared the no-shippers. That's not right. I think the
SS H/H and the Good Ship R/H need to sign an armistice right away. Think of
all the poor innocents down there in their inner tubes who could get hurt!
kimberly:
>I hope I'm not stepping on any toes - I don't mean to speak for one
>side or offend the other side, I just wanted to bring some things out
>in the open.
And I thank you for that, as you said it much better than I did in my original
post.
And don't worry, everybody. Even if the H/H and R/H do fire on each other
sometimes, rest assured it's just friendly fire. :)
Kathy
AKA Captain Elanor
who is probably starting to develop delusions of grandeur

From: bbennett@j...
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: The Ship Hits the Fan (long, but filled with brilliant insights)

Kathy wrote:
> All that said, I REALLY liked Penny's idea of the various ships as
party liners sailing along the HP waters. I have been thinking about
the Good Ship R/H: It's large and looks fairly rickety from the
outside, but it's held up by magic and is much more sturdy than some
might think. It has chess sets throughout and small explosions are
considered a matter of course.>
Kathy, I'd like to apply for the position of Recreation Director,
providing Cassandra and AngieJ will occasionally invite me to dinghy
over for afternoon tea.
B Bennett
From: morine10@a...
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 10:10 pm
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Defensiveness

In a message dated 1/25/01 8:31:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, drmm@f...
writes:

> I really *should* write a comparison between
> Ron & Arthur and Hermione & Mrs. Weasley someday, because I see so many
> parallels between them, it's amazing.
You should! I absolutely agree with you on the parallels - I mentioned this
at another discussion site.
>
> DrMM (signing up for the position of ship's doctor on the R/H Cruise)
>
Great. We will need a doctor when we are rescuing all those H/H survivors! <
vbg>

-Mo
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:27 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: The Ship Hits the Fan (long, but filled with brilliant insights)
>Kathy, I'd like to apply for the position of Recreation Director,
>providing Cassandra and AngieJ will occasionally invite me to dinghy
>over for afternoon tea.
>
>B Bennett

You're on! You can arrange inter-ship activities too. Shuffleboard, anyone?
Kathy
AKA Captain Elanor Gamgee
tring to imagine magical shuffleboard and failing miserably
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:43 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Getting Shippy With It
Ginny Love wrote of the R/H ship:
>It just makes sense.

Hmm, I think we have a new motto.

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Jan 25, 2001 11:41 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Getting Shippy With It


===== Original Message From HPforGrownups@egroups.com =====
> <glances back and forth> Er-I just fell off the SS
>H/H and have swam over to the R/H ship. What can I
>say? So here I am, captian, one of the few, one of the
>proud. It just makes sense.
> Ginny Love

Pull that recruit out of the water and get her a uniform! I'd go on, but I'm
running low on bad nautical metaphors. (Oh, and you get extra points for a
groovy subject line <g> )
This is so cool! This makes, what, 5 of us now? Come on over, everybody's
welcome on the Good Ship R/H!

Captain Kathy

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 1:23 am
Subject: Party on the Good Ship R/H

The R/Hers are out in force! I could sing! Welcome aboard one and all!
Rina wrote:
>Hermione's constantly pestering them both, but even more with Ron. Probably
>my Lucy
>Maud childhood rearing it's head, but I think it's similar to Ilse and >Perry
- all those years it came across like she didn't like him much, but >she was
actually just pushing him because she loved him and knew he could do >better
than what he was.
>There's Hermione's reason for the bickering.
I think this is a brilliant insight. Hermione doesn't let Ron get away with
laziness or lazy thinking. Like when she calls him on his comments about
Percy or about encouraging Harry to sneak into Hogsemead in PoA. She's
disappointed at things like that because she expects better from him--and
knows he can do better. And that, IMO, is just what Ron needs. Hermione may
very well be the one person who *doesn't* think of Ron as somehow less than
Harry (and she's probably the one who is best capable of making that judgment
too). One day Ron will wake up and realize this.
Rina again:
>I guess they're just fun. LOL This sounds totally psycho, but I see H/R/H
kind of like a triangle - Harry at the tip and Ron and Hermione making the
base. R/H kind of connect together, and this supports both Harry and their
three way friendship.
I like this analogy. And I agree that R/H is just more fun. (I know that's
not a well-articulated argument, but it's how I feel!) But then this could be
because I'm finding Harry kinds boring lately, as I said earlier...
Rina again:
><shrug> I don't see R&H leaving Harry out if they were in a relationship any
>more than they do now. In book four, at least, there are lots of instances
>where Harry gets fed up with their snipping and leaves to do his own thing,
>and he doesn't seem
>to mind or feel especially left out. R&H already spend a lot of time
>together, and I don't think that would change.
This was my reaction when I read about the "Harry Problem"--what problem? I
can see him feeling a little weird initially, but it doesn't ever seem to
bother him when Hermione and Ron do their own thing now, and they do spend
quite a bit of time together away from him as it is. The only time I can
think of that it bothered him was the first Hogsmead trip, and that was only
because he couldn't go to the village.
Rina yet again:
>For the most part, when you get an H/R story, it's about H&R and their
>romance. It's not that they don't see
>Harry, it's that the author really likes R&H and is focusing the story on
>them. They *are the story. In the books, the focus will be on Harry as
>always, and the story is Harry's. Even if Ron and Hermione are holding hands
>or hugging or whatever, it
>won't be the focus of the story, scene, etc.
Bingo. I think there's a big difference between showing R/H and shunting
Harry aside. Harry's always going to be the hero, can't change that. But you
can show a different perspective. I'm still not sold on the notion of "the
Harry problem", sorry.
>Rina
>(Does this mean I can say I wrote some big essay on why my 'ship is so
important, and get my obsession rating up a little? <g>)
Oh, absolutely, Rina! That should be worth some good points!
Amy Z wrote:
>(BTW, Ebony: "the R/Hers would never permit a menage a trois"--say what? I
>think Ron/Harry makes [marginally] more sense than H/H. So with an H/H/R
>ship I at least agree with 2 out of 3! LOL!)
I love this! Actually, I can see Ron/Harry as more plausible than H/H for a
lot of reasons, which I won't go into now.
Amy Z:
>So what's a shipper? Someone who wants to see a particular pair together
>(sense A)? Someone who thinks two people *are* a couple in canon or will be
>(sense b)? Someone who has a crush on a character and therefore desperately
>wishes to see him/her in a romance to flesh out his/her own fantasies (sense
>C)?
A, B, and C, in my case at least! But I think that you raise a good point.
It strikes me that those of us who spend precious hours of our lives going
back and forth over the issues probably fall more into the A and C categories.
(After all, both major ships have admitted that we will continue to prefer
our ships regardless of what JKR writes. But, OTOH, both ships derive their
positions from canon, so who knows?
Rosa wrote:
>I'm glad to hear it, mon capitaine. Permission to come aboard?
Come on up! Isaac's serving drinks down in the bar, and Recreation Director B
Bennett has some wonderful activities planned for later.
Andrea wrote:
>If I were to guess who might be in Harry's future I would say Ginny Weasley.
>Harry's overall arc is concerned with the loss of his family. The Weasleys,
>for all intents and purposes, have been his surrogate family and Ginny will
>not be a star-struck schoolgirl forever. Jo might surprise me, but I think
>that may be where she is headed. We'll see. I'd like to see the Weasleys as
>Harry's actual family someday, and if the Good Ship H/R comes in as we
>expect, Hermione will make Harry a wonderful sister in law!
>Dipping her toes in the shipping waters,
>Andrea
Welcome aboard Andrea! I also really like this reasoning. I would really
like to see Harry officially become part of the Weasley family (which of
course involves Ginny becoming more developed,etc--usual disclaimers apply).
Oh, I can just hear Ebony gagging in the background at the mention of One Big
Happy Weasley Family! But, whether it's realistic or not, I like the idea.
(Hey, now I know how HH-ers feel!) (just kidding! just kidding!)
Kelley wrote:
>Here I am, Captain. Sorry, I was cha-chaing on the Lido deck with Gopher.
My husband is now looking at me strangely because I went into an
uncontrollable fit of giggling upon readin this. I think because it inspired
visions of the Mad-Eye-Moody-dancing-with-a-male-Professor-Sinistra scenario
that was posted here a while back. Anyway, welcome aboard, Yeoman Kelley!
Lunch will be served on the Promenade deck in 1 hour.
Kelley again:
>I've dabbled a bit, myself, though now I'll start a rigorous training
>program. 100% No Fear...
Maybe we should start a rigorous calisthenics programs to get all our recruits
in shape? Top Deck 06:00.
Kelley again:
>Personally, I'm just secure in my beliefs. I feel no need to convince anyone
>of the 'rightness' of R/H. Sadly, H/H-ers won't change due to my beliefs.
>You just have to let them go on, then when they WANT help, we offer comfort
>and solace and gentle deprogramming.
...more uncontrollable giggling...
Kelley:
>Not to mention the ghost up in the crow's nest, and gnomes scampering about
>underdeck...
LOL! I knew someone more creative than I would get this metaphor going!
Kelley:
>There's always room for one more when you're with the Weasleys. (And who
>doesn't want to party with them?)
Mmmmmm, Weasleys.....oh, sorry, where was I? ;)

DrMM wrote:
> DrMM (signing up for the position of ship's doctor on the R/H Cruise)
and First Mate Mo responded:
>Great. We will need a doctor when we are rescuing all those H/H survivors! <
>vbg>
Perhaps we should also advertise for a ship's psychologist to help out with
all that gentle deprogramming of H/H-ers?

DrMM wrote:
> <shrug> I suspect half the reason why I don't care for the H/H ship as much
>as I do is because I honestly felt the implication that Ron was, in some
>way, shape or form, unworthy of Hermione. It may have been unintentional,
>but I still got that implication (although not as much from you (Penny) as
others). >And as I've never understood the problems that people have with Ron,
when >he's a Perfectly Normal Boy (and IMO the most realistic of the three), I
>found that rather annoying.
Right on, DrMM! I have felt the same way, and since insulting Ron is the
easiest way to anger me, well...there you go. (And by the way, welcome
aboard, good doctor! It's great to hear from you!)
Ebony wrote:
>Thanks for sharing this, Doctor dear. Do you realize that we had absolutely
>no idea that we were stepping on toes when we implied this? So it was
>surprising to certain H/Hers when our posts about our ship were... well,
>let's just say not very well received at all. While that doesn't change my
>sentiment about Ron, I'll watch how I word my Ron-centered posts in the
>future.

See that you do. :)
Seriously, I think it all goes back to something Ebony have gone over a bunch
of times: R/H-ers and H/H-ers just tend to see the characters differently. As
one R/H-er said to me recently, "Sometimes I wonder if they're even reading
the same books we are!" But it keeps things lively anyway!
DrMM wrote:
>Plus, I still think Ron and Hermione are better suited. I really *should*
>write a comparison between Ron & Arthur and Hermione & Mrs. Weasley someday,
>because I see so many parallels between them, it's amazing.
I must chime in with Ebony and say please write this soon, cause I would also
love to read your thoughts on this. (See, Ebony, something else we agree on!
let's hear it for Intership cooperation!)

Minnesota Girlie wrote:
>Er... hi! Was just floating around in the HP waters, looking for a ship like
>this... I'm glad I'm not the only R/H shipper around (yes yes, I've read
>PoU, DD/DS, ASA, all of those... they're very good, I just don't agree with
>them). < salutes > Hmm. "One of the few, one of the proud." It should be
>our motto. What say you, fellow R/H shippers?
Welcome aboard! As for the motto, I'm all for it as long as we can have Ginny
Love's "R/H: It just makes more sense." stenciled on the prow.
All these new arrivals--this calls for a celebration! Butterbeers all around!
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: morine10@a...
Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:41 am
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Getting Shippy With It
In a message dated 1/26/01 3:00:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tigeriz969@y... writes:
<< *splash* *splash* *splash*
Ahoy there! *arm waving in the water* Captain Kathy! Down here!
Permission to climb aboard!
Permission granted! (First mate Mo here, throwing you a lifering)

Is there room for one more ferverent RH shipster?
There's always room for jello and one more R/H-er. :)
I agree with Ginny getting Harry. After all, the underdog girl should be
able to get her crush once in awhile!
I have to agree. Besides, we haven't seen all of Ginny. JKR has promised us
more of the youngest Weasley and I believe that she just might blow us away!
-Mo
First Mate
R/H-shipper First Class

From: Jennie Levine <zsenya@y...>
Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:02 pm
Subject: The Good Ship R/H...
URG! I've been trying to send this but egroups has
been usurped by Yahoo overnight! I'm trying again...I
hope it's not to late to catch the Good Ship R/H
Well, I have to admit, I recklessly deleted about 10
digests yesterday without reading them in an attempt
to "simplify" my life, but then this morning I see the
whole ship thread!
Kathy - I'm here, delurking in defense of Ron once
again! I'll join you on the SS R/H. It's early and I
don't know exactly what to say that I haven't said
before. I just like R/H better. I think that Ron
really cares about Hermione, despite the bickering,
and as soon as he's not a 15 year-old boy anymore
they'll be really good for each other. Hermione
annoys the heck out of Harry and I get the feeling
that she knows it. She annoys Ron too, but I think he
kind of likes it.
This of course, just fits my own personal world image
of Hermione - whom I see as a very clever, very
courageous girl. I think she's wonderful. I think
Ron makes her mind whirl and she needs that. I don't
know...it's early and I'm rambling. Maybe I should
just try tocome up with a coherent thought later in
the day. To me, it's obvious Ron has a crush on her
and that she likes him back. That's how I've
interpreted things like her getting annoyed with
Fleur. And I KNOW that the ratio of high school
romances that pan out to adulthood are probably rare,
but this is a world of fiction and I want to see it
that way. I want Ron and Hermione to grow up, be
together, and have lots of bushy-haired redheaded
kids. I want Harry to battle Voldemort, kill him,
and retire to a nice quiet life with Ginny Weasley. I
don't even keep in touch with more than one person
from high school on a regular basis, so maybe I am
just looking to them for a nice alternate reality.
The H/H shippers have their own beliefs and views, and
I respect that. If they're all as obsessed as I am
about the books, then I totally understand how
emotional everyone gets on the subject. I just hope
that whichever of us gets to be the Titanic, that the
good people of the Carpathia will rescue all of us!

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 1:00 am
Subject: Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of butterbeer!

>Ginny Love wrote of the R/H ship:
> >It just makes sense.
The honorable R/H Captain Kathy responded:
>Hmm, I think we have a new motto.
I don't think I have ever in my life been referred to as "honorable" before!
Ebony wrote:
>GOAT! Where in tarnation *are* you? I'd better get that cheesy "the best
>ship is friendship" in the mail soon... I did more than bite my tongue when
>reading the above! That makes almost than a dozen R/H posts in the past 12
>hours that I responded nicely to or just kept quiet about.
Just think of it as payback, my dear. ;)
Ebony again:
>Having said that, I must compliment my friend, the Captain of the R/H ship.
>I've taken the full tour, and I must say that I'm impressed. What a
>vessel... you go, girl! (Doesn't compete with blue snow, swing music,
>hippogriffs, Hogsmere strolls, and *completely* insignificant GoF kisses
>that no H/H shipper in her right mind should even care about, but hey--to
>each her own!) :-)
Gosh, thanks. You're welcome to visit anytime...as long as you're nice to
Ron. Denigration of Weasleys of any kind will not be tolerated on the Good
Ship R/H. Violators of this rule shall be forced to walk the plank.
Christy wrote:
<< *splash* *splash* *splash*
>Ahoy there! *arm waving in the water* Captain Kathy! Down here!
>Permission to climb aboard!
I see that my trusty First Mate has already welcomed you aboard (very
efficient, that one! <g>) I trust your stateroom is to your liking?

Ginny Love wrote:
>R/H: <g> "It just makes sense". Yeah, that's a good motto.
>Right up there with <eg> "Read Goblet of Fire". As for
>nautical terms, how about this?- Those H/H shippers
>don't know a crowjeck from a scuttlebut. ::waves::
>Thank you, thank you, no applause, just throw money!
May I offer you the position of Marketing Director aboard the Good Ship R/H?
Zsenya wrote:
>I hope it's not to late to catch the Good Ship R/H
Never, we can apparate to your location and pick you up anywhere! Glad to
have you aboard Zsenya! I'd been wondering where you were! And what job
shall we give you?
Zsenya again:
>Kathy - I'm here, delurking in defense of Ron once
>again! I'll join you on the SS R/H. It's early and I
>don't know exactly what to say that I haven't said
>before.
That's okay! Every time the shipper thread comes around there's some
repetition on both sides, but then your brilliant thoughts will start flowing!
I've been thinking that part of the reason H/Hers perceive R/Hers as being so
defensive is that we tend to leave the burden of proof up to them. (Because,
as we know R/H just makes more sense! <g>)
Ginny LOve wrote:
>and one for the H/H-ers-
>"We Can Dream, Can't We?" And a general shout out to
>the H/H crowd (just to keep things lively, of course)
>-"It's not everyday you see a boat with multiple poop
>decks!"
Oh, yeah, *definitely* our new Marketing Director! :)
Trina wrote:
>Yes!!! I thought of this last night as I was getting ready for bed. It was
>*Ron* leapt to Hermione's defence when Malfoy called her a Mudblood and
>wound up belching slugs all day. Granted, Harry was unaware of how truly
>nasty it was, but it was the Weasley boys who tried to take action. (A quick
>glance at CoS, showed me that Gred and Forge also tried to jump Malfoy just
>before Ron whipped out his wand)
You know, I think things like this are what bother me most about the H/H
position. I know that H/Hers admit that Harry hasn't shown any interest in
Hermione yet, and supposedly would in the future, but it seems to me that not
only has he not shown any interest, he has been quite the opposite of
interested in pretty much anything Hermione talks about or does. At least Ron
argues with her, so he's showing some interest. And *Ron* was the one who
noticed Hermione's weird schedule and the time turner slipups in PoA. It was
always Ron pointing them out or noticing Hermione's feelings (example: I was
just listening to the Hermione-walking-out-of-Divination scene today, and
after she leaves it's *Ron* who says "Some day Hermione's having" while
Harry's being distracted. Granted, Harry has reason to be distracted, but
*still*.) I just don't see the evidence for a future H/H relationship.

Trina again:
>Oh, my gracious. I think I've just outed myself as an R/H shipper!
*lurks hurt* You say that like it's bad thing. Seriously, Trina, climb right
aboard the Good Ship R/H. We have an excellent midnight buffet. :)
Oh, look at all the R/Hers! This is so cool! I'm dancing around on deck in
glee...
Kathy
AKA Captain Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 1:19 am
Subject: Happy Family and the G/H

Someone (I lost track of who, but now that I read it again, it *has* to be
Penny <g>) wrote:
> It seems like adherents to this theory tend to pair off Ron with Hermione
> and then say, "ooh, what about Harry? Oh, well, he can be with Ginny and
> then everyone's happy" (which, btw, *is* the "Harry Problem" that the
> R/H'ers insist doesn't exist -- pairing him off with Ginny (who's a
> sidelines character that we don't know much about at this point)
because
> they've paired Hermione off with Ron).
I never said that R/H would not change the dynamic of the Trio, what I meant
was that I don't see it being a *problem*. I don't get the impression that
Harry's bothered at all by the idea of Ron and Hermione having a separate
relationship, as long as the 3 of them are still friends. (Actually I got the
impression that he would find it a huge relief if they would just admit their
feelings to one another and get it over with!)
But I digress (often and at length!)...what I wanted to say was that wanting
H/G to develop a relationship isn't necessarily a corallary of R/H. And I
don't think that those who propose it are doing it as a solution to any sort
of "Harry problem" either.

kimberly responded to Penny with:
>I can't say for everyone, but you've completely missed the point with me,
>because I want Ginny and Harry together because I want them together, not
>because he can't be with Hermione. I have no Harry problem. I think he and
>Hermione are ill-suited (and as an aside, that Hermione and Ron would, as
>they mature, bring out the best in each other [see the Buckbeak incident
>that ended the Scabbers/Crookshanks argument]). <snip>It's a gut thing, and
>the happy family is a very cheerful, huge added bonus, in my opinion.
Yes, I agree! The OBHWF idea may be cheesy and admittedly improbable in the
canon (just because it would be too tidy, as Cassie pointed out) but it is
appealing. And, depending on how they get there, it could cause all kinds of
interesting situations. (Once again, I point to "The Best Man" series by Mrs.
Weasley, which I know you are all tired of hearing from me about, but I think
it provides an excellent example of how the parallel relationships could cause
tensions, when one is working smoothly and the other is not). *And*, for
those who say it's improbable, well, my brother and my cousin (who are also
best friends) married 2 sisters. Stuff like this does happen in real life.
Jim wrote:
> You and I are on the very small H/G ship, oppressed and alone, being
> pelted by pennies and beaten with clubs of ebony, and patronized
> because we think One Big Happy Weasley Family isn't such a bad thing
> after all. It's true we haven't had much to go on, and certainly
> Ginny will have to get over her hero-worship of Harry for them to
> develop anything real. Shared experience will do a lot to resolve
> that, I hope, and then maybe we'll see something better than her being
> shipped off to a creep like Draco.
As Captain of the R/H ship, I hereby offer to tow you along with us, as you'll
be needing protection from blasts of the SS H/H. (And for any of my loyal
crew who object, I'll point out that we'll just use towlines--they are
connected but separate ships after all.)
I had so much more I wanted to say on this but it's now 1:15 am and I have to
get up and go to work in a few hours! Eek, when did I get so irresponsible?
Ah well, a shipper's duties are pressing.
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee, delighted R/H captain
P.S. By the way, Elizabeth, you sure you don't want to reconsider and hop
aboard our ship? We've got lots of Weasleys...

From: morine10@a...
Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 12:40 pm
Subject: OBHWF, R/H vs. H/H, BOP

kimberly wrote:
> I think he and Hermione are ill-suited (and as an aside, that Hermione and
> Ron would, as they mature, bring out the best in each other [see the
> Buckbeak incident that ended the Scabbers/Crookshanks argument]).
Exactly. She challenges his lazy butt and just keeps him from slacking off
too much. Without Ron Hermione would be all work and no play. He also is
able to get her to admit when she is wrong. Hermione is bossy and even
though she has lightened up considerably and will IMO continue to do so, she
will always be bossy. She will never be an ideal match for Harry - he's had
enough bossing in his life.
kimberly on OBHWF:
> it doesn't stop me from liking the idea, and it wouldn't stop me from being
> thrilled if she did it, nor do I think it would cheapen the story, as so
>
I agree and I don't understand why some would think it is such an easy way
out. JKR has said that the stories will become considerably darker. But you
cannot have dark without light. I cannot see her showing at least some hints
of future happiness and peace for the characters no matter what that may be.
Tangent--Harry is building a family as he goes consisting of not only the
Weasleys but also Hagrid, Sirius, Lupin, Dumbledore and surely others we have
yet to meet. He never had such a network of love and support before. Until
Hogwarts he was alone. It was Harry vs. the Dursleys. I believe that JKR is
emphasising this to show that Harry will never have to be alone again.
Captain Kathy stated:
> I never said that R/H would not change the dynamic of the Trio, what I meant
> was that I don't see it being a *problem*. I don't get the impression that
> Harry's bothered at all by the idea of Ron and Hermione having a separate
> relationship, as long as the 3 of them are still friends. (Actually I got
> the
> impression that he would find it a huge relief if they would just admit
> their
>
and Penny countered:
> I hardly think it will show a one-sided column of only Ron being perceptive &
> attune to her as a person. One glaring example that leaps to mind is that
> it was
> *Harry* and not stubborn Ron who wanted to make up with Hermione in PoA.
> He was perceptive enough to notice how unhappy she was and how tired she
> looked, knew she'd acted out of caring concern & approached her in the
> common room on his own. He no doubt appreciates the fact that it has been
> Hermione who was more steadfastly loyal to him than Ron. And, he most
> definitely appreciates the help she gives him with summoning charms & the
> curses/spells for the 3rd Task. If you can make the above argument that
> Ron is the only one who interacts with and notices/appreciates Hermione,
> then we really aren't reading the same books! <g>
The more I read the more I know we aren't reading the same books! <g> I of
course side with Kathy. I think Harry just wants them to get it over
with.....After the Yule Ball during the infamous argument..."Harry didn't say
anything. he liked being back on speaking terms with Ron too much to speak
his mind right now--but he somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point
much better than Ron had." I know this is a point of differing opinion
between R/H-ers and H/H-ers. But to me it speaks volumes - Harry knows :)
As for whether or not Harry or Ron notices more about Hermione...Harry is
concerned with the overall friendship of the trio and keeping it intact.
(This is not to say that Hermione and Ron aren't, mind). They are his
family. The last thing he wants is for his family to be broken up (again).
And yes he does appreciate her help and loyalty. But he says so himself -
she isn't as fun as Ron. Both of them need that patented Ron Weasley Fun.
Together Hermione and Harry are as dull as one of Professor Binn's goblin
lectures.
Now as for Ron - he notices the specifics. Her scheduling conflicts in PoA.
Her interactions with Krum. He's the one that first notices her new teeth.
He might not get the big picture yet, but he's certainly collecting the
pieces. I also have to mention the PoA Crookshanks/Scabbers arguments
between Ron and Hermione. The fight started between the three over the
Firebolt but continued between R and H over their pets. For the record, I
feel that Hermione was totally out of line. Crookshanks was trying to kill
Scabbers and she absolutely should have been more sensitive to Ron's
feelings. I know she came around in the end, but when her cat was pouncing
on the rat and she just passed it off as what cats and rats do, it really
irritated me. However she did come around in the end and admitted she was
wrong - see how Ron can do that? :)
Penny:
> You all still haven't met your "burden of proof" to show that Hermione likes
> Ron back. When you can show me evidence of this that I can't refute with a
> "straight-face" argument, then we'll see about shifting the BOP.
As we speak our Chief Counsel Joanne (who moonlights as Admiral of the Good
Ship R/H) is gathering the evidence. Discovery is going to be so much fun! <
vbg>

Jim said:
>
She absolutely does...and I won't.

-Mo

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:35 pm
Subject: No need to get shippy about it...

The Good Ship R/H
"R/H: It Just Makes More Sense"
From the Quill of Captain Kathy

Ebony said:
>I'm really beginning to think that firm ship preferences are directly related
to the way we read the books in >general. Everyone on list knows that I'm
loudly, obnoxiously, and unashamedly H/H.
Really? ;) Never would've guessed.
Ebony:
>Here's my stance on those issues. What I'm wondering now is how other H/Hers
view the positions below, >as opposed to those of other ships and no-shippers.
>1) I'm a SuperHarry advocate.
I've chimed in on this before, but I really really don't like the SuperHarry
idea. It may be where JKR is heading, but I honestly hope not. Like Amy Z ,
I think that it would negate the message of the series and to me, it would
ring false. It may be true that Harry is very talented and could be the next
Dumbledore, but I hope it's not because he's an uber-wizard.
Ebony again:
>2) Although I dislike the Slytherins in canon, I believe that both Draco and
Snape are redeemable in both >canon and fanon.
Snape, yes. I trust Dumbledore on that one. Draco, I'm not so sure. I
used to think maybe he would be redeemable and then I reread CoS-during the
part where he said that he hoped Hermione would be the next to die (while Ron
and Harry were under the influence of the Polyjuice Potion), it really struck
me how nasty he is. Don't get me wrong, I think it's possible, but only if
something drastic were to happen. (Cassie did it very plausibly in DD.) I
still don't trust him though.
Ebony said:
>3) I identify strongly with Percy. I doubt very seriously that he will become
a Death Eater.
I also identify strongly with Percy. And I think his concern over Ron during
the Second Task alone is evidence that he really does care about his family.
I don't think he'll go all evil, although I think he will find his loyalties
and assumptions tested in the future.
Ebony said:
>4) I think that there's more to Hermione than brains. We still don't
*completely* know from canon why >the Sorting Hat put her into Gryffindor.
I don't think you'll get much opposition from the Good Ship R/H on this one.
(In fact, I think the one things the two ships can agree on is that we love
Hermione and want to see her with the right guy-we just disagree over who the
right guy for her is!) And I think we have already seen why she is in
Gryffindor. Just yesterday I was listening to PoA and the Shrieking Shack
scene came up. It occurred to me that Hermione showed incredible bravery in
standing up to Professor Snape. ("Professor, it can't hurt to hear what they
have to say, can it?") Not to mention the fact that she tried to disarm Snape
at the same time Ron and Harry did. Even though she whimpered about it, she
still did it. I don't need more proof that Hermione belongs in Gryffindor.
I'm already satisfied.
Ebony:
>5) Ron, at this point, *really* needs to be onstage for a significant portion
of Book 5 so that his character >can be developed more. In books 1-2 I grinned
at him and said "typical boy"... in books 3 and especially 4 >I really
believed he needed to "get a grip".
Well, I certainly can't argue against more Ron! But I do think that H/Hers
tend to give him a bum rap. Yes, he was at fault, but so was Hermione (in the
Crookshanks incident) and so was Harry (in the GoF argument). And, as others
have pointed out, Ron really is a loyal friend. But I do agree that he needs
to "come into his own", so to speak.
Ebony again:
>6) I'm a small Hogwarts/wizarding world advocate.
I think so too. I have always thought of the Wizarding world (WW) as being
somewhat like the Deaf World (DW) , in the U.S. at least. I see a lot of
parallels. Both the WW and the DW exist in the context of the larger culture
and have dealings with it, but have extensive bonds and culture separate from
the larger culture. A huge percentage of Deaf children are born to hearing
parents, and learn Deaf culture from Deaf schools and Deaf adults. While we
don't know what percentage of wizard kids have Muggle parents, it seems to be
a reasonably large amount. And once the wizard kids go off to Hogwarts, they
essentially become a part of a separate culture about which their parents know
very little and in which their parents can never fully participate. (In my
spare time---what little I have when I am not working or checking my email!-I
am studying to become an ASL interpreter, so this is based on that. I am sure
someone else with a better knowledge of Deaf Culture could either draw more
comparisons or tell me why this theory is total rubbish! J)
Ebony:
>7) I have always thought the Wand Order issue was much ado about nothing.
Me, too. I do agree with Penny that the revised passage doesn't read very
well, but since I have a copy with the original order, I'll just happily read
that and ignore the controversy.
Ebony:
>8) I love post-Hogwarts fanfics.
I do too, but I like at-Hogwarts stuff too. I find them equally interesting
in different ways.
Ebony:
>I also like fanfics that attempt to explain the scientific and cultural
features of the magical world. While >shipping fluff and steamy romance fics
are all well and good, my favorite fics also deal with explaining >important
existential questions that JKR has not dealt with thus far. Even my own soap
opera has a lot of >theory-type gobbledygook in the background and in the
backstory/outline that has *nothing to do with >shipping*. (That might explain
Kathy's "UberFic" theory--the most famous H/H subplot fics really focus >on
something besides shipping entirely--H/H is not the cake itself in these fics,
just the icing.
Well, these are moderately interesting, I guess, though I have to admit I tend
to skim through the parts with long, theoretical asides. I prefer
character-driven fics and ones that delve into the relationships between and
among the characters (and not just romantic ones-I happen to think that Ron
and Harry's relationship is very interesting, not in a slashy sense, and part
of the reason I started my fic with the Goblet of Fire scene was that I really
wanted to get into their argument from another point of view. I also think
Harry and Hermione's friendship is interesting (even if I think Harry's boring
J) even though I don't think it will develop into a romance.)
Ebony again:
>So I'll echo Penny here... it's not that the R/Hers are less vocal.
Not anymore, at any rate! <grins at the ever-growing crew of the Good Ship
R/H>
Ebony wrote:
>A few quick points of clarification:
>-I started the "destroyer" talk. I'm the only one who used the term. Penny's
earlier post checked me >effectively. My apologies. Chalk it up to my man
being in uniform... and my own weird and sometimes >culturally-derived sense
of humor. We'll be a cruise ship from now on.
>--I also started the "disorder" talk. Again, I apologize. My shipmates had
nothing to do with it. R/Hers >will be simply "misguided" in the future.
For the record, Ebony, I knew you were kidding. I was a little concerned that
others wouldn't realize that though, and, as it has been my mission of late to
encourage more of my R/H compatriots to post, I wanted to try to preserve the
fun-cruise-ship sense the discussion was taking on. HP4GU has, unfortunately
and somewhat unfairly, gotten something of a reputation as Not a Safe Place
for R/H-ers, and I think it's time to change that. (As evidenced by the
recent postings, we're well on our way!) I think this list is such a wondeful
group of people and I really value the opinions and insights here (even if
some of them are misguided <g>), so I want everybody to feel welcome, that's
all.
Ebony wrote:
>Not at all, Kimberly--one of my favorite people on list is the R/H captain...
she and I both work with kids >and are addicted to fanfiction. So much for the
notion of a real war, when we're both "fraternizing with the >enemy" (Ron
quote! LOL!) <g>
<blushing>Awww, Ebony, flattery will get you everywhere! You're one of my
favorite sparring partners too <g>, and btw I really like your fanfic, even if
some of your ideas make my stomach hurt. (And, extra points for quoting Ron!)
Cassie wrote:
>I do mind cliches, even if they allow my hero to be happy. Like Carole said,
it's perfectly possible to have >your hero be happy in an ending that isn't a
cliche, and wouldn't that be much better?
I know I've already commented on OBHWF as being unlikely in the canon because
it's too tidy, but I can also see it happening with a JKR twist. After all,
she has manged to take other things that have been beaten into the ground by
other writers and give them a new twist-maybe OBHWF will be the same way. Who
knows?
Christy wrote:
>*Panting* Thanks! I usually don't have a problem hanging on but eat enough of
those Bott's beans and it >can weigh you down! Aloha all! I join you from
the island of Oahu. I can be your graveyard shift in the >crow's nest if you
have none. *Salute* Reporting for duty and awaiting orders!
Of course! Just watch out for the ghoul up there-he likes to play tricks.
Penny wrote::
>What if Harry would be "relieved" if Ron & Hermione got together because he
senses that Hermione >likes him, and he either (a) can't imagine what that
would do to his friendship with Ron
>(so he hopes she'll just hook up with Ron and the whole problem will "go
away"),
>or (b) likes her back but is resistant for other reasons (such as putting
Hermione
>in greater danger -- Harry Potter's girlfriend and a mudblood to boot --
she'd be
>a prime target, wouldn't she?).
Actually, I think the first point has some merit-if Harry did think that
Hermione liked him (of which we have seen so evidence), I could see a scenario
like that happening. But I still maintain (and I believe even H/Hers agree on
this) that there is no evidence that Harry likes Hermione. I would add that I
don't see much evidence that he would develop interest in her romantically,
but I am sure H/Hers would dispute that.
Penny wrote:
>But, are there any H/G shippers who are *not* also R/H shippers? Are there
>specifically any H/G shippers who are fervently H/G and fervently anti-R/H?
That's a good question and better answered by fervent H/G-ers. As for me, I
think they would be cute together but I don't think they necessarily belong
together the way Hermione and Ron do.
I wrote:
> Gosh, thanks. You're welcome to visit anytime...as long as you're nice to
> Ron. Denigration of Weasleys of any kind will not be tolerated on the Good
> Ship R/H. Violators of this rule shall be forced to walk the plank.
And Penny replied:
>Oh well. I guess I won't be allowed a friendly visit even since I don't
believe
>Ron (or any Weasley) is perfect and therefore immune from criticism (any more
than
>Harry or Hermione is).
Now, Penny, play fair. J I never said that criticizing Ron or any Weasley for
that matter was wrong-we know he's not perfect! But you know my pet peeve is
the Ron-is-less-than-Harry (or anyone) argument, and I'm pulling rank as
captain and banning that from our ship! Anyone who wants to have a
Ron-bashing party is welcome to do it on their own liner.
Penny continued:
>The H/H Ship: The Ship of Realism, not Fantasy. Maybe
>that could be *our* new slogan. :--)
(snickers uncontrollably) Sorry.laughing.too.hard..to.write.response.
<g>
Penny again:
>Well .... "burden of proof" is a legal term. Ahem. You all still haven't met
>your "burden of proof" to show that Hermione likes Ron back.
Sigh.I thought we agreed on that at least, that Hermione's feelings are an
unknown. You haven't met the burden of proof to prove that she likes Harry
either. What I really meant by my original comment was that, in my experience
at least, R/H-ers tend not to have the need to convert others that seems to
accompany H/H-ism. (no offense intended to anyone here of course! It's just
my observation)
Penny wrote:
>I hardly think it will show a one-sided column of only Ron being perceptive &
>attune to her as a person. One glaring example that leaps to mind is that it
was
>*Harry* and not stubborn Ron who wanted to make up with Hermione in PoA. He
was
>perceptive enough to notice how unhappy she was and how tired she looked,
knew
>she'd acted out of caring concern & approached her in the common room on his
own.
I didn't mean to imply that Ron was perfectly attuned to her-he is still a
boy,after all! And the fact is that we really don't know that Ron didn't
notice how unhappy she was in PoA, do we? (Just like we really don't know
what he was thinking during the fight with Harry in GoF.) I maintain that Ron
would have been feeling guilty and somewhat torn in both instances, even if he
didn't know how to show it and was too stubborn to try.
Penny again:
>He no doubt appreciates the fact that it has been Hermione who was more
>steadfastly loyal to him than Ron. And, he most definitely appreciates the
help
>she gives him with summoning charms & the curses/spells for the 3rd Task.
Oh really? And what evidence is there of this? One of the things that
annoyed me most in GoF was Harry's lack of realization of Hermione's steadfast
friendship. The one perspective we do have in the books is Harry's, and I
didn't see him thinking either of the things you have asserted.
Jim wrote:
>Hermione, like any young woman, wants to be noticed. She definitely wants
*Ron* to notice. Is she head >over heels for him? Doubt it. Madly in love?
Hardly. But there's *something*. The opposite of love is not >hate, it's
indifference. And Hermione is not indifferent.
Not surprisingly, I agree. There is something going on there.
Penny said:
> What I objected to in Trina's message was again relying strictly on evidence
that suggests that Ron likes >Hermione & just transferring
>reciprocal feelings to Hermione without really analyzing whether that's
well-placed or not.
And I object to using the Hermione-may-have-feelings-for-Harry argument as a
basis for H/H for the same reason. Harry may be boring to me right now, but
he's a person too! J
First Mate Mo wrote:
>Exactly. She challenges his lazy butt and just keeps him from slacking off
too much. Without Ron >Hermione would be all work and no play. He also is able
to get her to admit when she is wrong.
Good observation, matey. I never thought about it that way, but you're right.
You know, I think it's kind of amusing that on both the R/H ship and H/H
ship, our most compelling (at least to ourselves) arguments are the ones based
on feelings ("It just feels right to me"). Which is why trying to convert
each other is a pretty pointless exercise, but I still enjoy the debate! But
I think Mo's point brings it home for me: that's why I am on the R/H. I like
Hermione, I like Ron, and I really like how they are together.
Amy Z wrote:
>A side note: each one of the books is marked by serious discord in
friendships. PS/SS: R&Ha don't even >like Hermione 'til midway through. CoS:
Harry is the pariah of the school. PA: Serious conflict btw. Ron >and
Hermione, and several weeks where neither boy talks to her. GF: Harry's the
pariah again, plus the >conflict with Ron. JKR's creativity in generating and
resolving problems with friendships is rivalled only >by her creativity in
imagining plausible ways to get rid of DADA teachers.
This is a great observation. I think that this is one of the main reasons I
love HP so much. Very often, especially in adolescence, we are given the
message that friendship is not quite as important as other relationships. But
as someone pointed out a while ago (I think it was Ebony), the amount of time
that goes into worrying about getting/keeping friends at that age is
staggering. The relationships between and among the characters are definitely
what keep me coming back to HP.
Amy G
>Ahoy there! Is there room for one more on the Good Ship R/H? Reporting for
>duty Captain Kathy!
Of course! Welcome aboard! Karaoke starts on the Lido deck in a few minutes.
Amy G again:
>Someone else brought up about Ginny probably being Hermione's closest female
>friend. It bothers me sometimes that Hermione doesn't seem to have many
>female friends. It doesn't seem that she associates much with Lavender or
>Parvati. Why do you think it is?
Um, if your choice was to hang out with Lavender and Parvati or Harry and Ron,
which would you pick? I can identify with that trait of Hermione's very
easily: I didn't have many friends at her age, especially girl friends,
because most of the girls at my school just weren't interested in the same
things I was and just didn't seem to be interested in being friends with me.
And Hermione isn't the kind of person who would change just to get people to
like her. Unfortunately that's often what people expect at that age. (at
least in my experience)
Ginny Love:
Do you all notice there simply is no V/H ship?
(that's Viktor).
Hey there, Marketing Director! Yeah, I had noticed that. Does anyone think
that H/V is really going to happen, or was it just a device to get Ron's
feelings to the surface? In writing my story, I have found that I actually am
really enjoying the H/V scenes (maybe because it's nice to have someone who
actually appreciates Hermione). I compare Viktor to a guy I worked with when
I was in college: he was 10 years older than I was and asked me out, which I
found flattering but very creepy (I was only 20 at the time-10 years makes a
big difference then, at least it did to me). He may be perfectly nice, but I
never got the sense that Hermione was too interested in him romantically.
And, for the record, I really like your theory that Ginny's knowledge of Tom
Riddle might come in handy later. And I do agree that it could be a link
between her and Harry.
Ebony wrote:
>Good fiction writing is all about "raising the stakes" at strategic points.
In all my training as a creative >writer, I can't see how the OBHWF scenario
contributes to any stakes-raising. ("Oh, great!" said Harry, >holding Ginny's
hand and beaming at Ron and Hermione. "I knew you two liked each other.") It
may be >smile-inducing, but it does nothing to raise the stakes. On the other
hand, I humbly suggest that H/H >causes an immediate stakes-raising in
canon--which is why most non-H/H fans--even so-called no->shippers--are
disquieted by the very idea of it. >>
And Rina responded:
>Well, yes, H/H would raise the stakes. But in it's own way, so would H/R. I'm
not sure if it's so much >H/Rs are disquieted by change, so much as they have
interpreted scenes and lines in a way that leads them >to H/R. Plus, this is
JKR. I don't think she's going to go the easy route on any story or direction
this may >take. <g> No matter who Hermione ends up with - Harry, Ron, random
guy, or no one - it's almost >guaranteed it will be some big plot thing. She
doesn't really do something for absolutely no reason, and I >don't think this
would be different.
I agree with Rina. As I have pointed out before, I don't think that OBHWF
necessarily has to be neat and tidy (*ahem* did I mention "The Best Man"
series?), and that JKR is certainly capable of making it interesting. AND,
it's true that R/H raises the stakes as well, just in a different way. I, for
one, am not "disquieted" by the idea of H/H; in fact, I think it's rather dull
and too HGTG <grins at First Mate Mo>. I never understood why H/H-ers think
R/H is "the easy way out" or some such.
Rina wrote:
>Okay, I don't know HOW, but this little bit inspired me to write a scene for
a fic. LOL Lovely little >angsty, dramatic action scene followed by Harry
saying, "I knew you two liked each other!" <g> I think >Ron snaps back, "Why
the hell didn't you tell ME that?" And it definitely raised stakes. LOL
Oooo, I want to read this Rina!
Ebony (I think) wrote:
<<(It's funny that H/H and R/H are so diametrically opposed that both ships
would rather see Ron and >Harry slashed than for the other ship to prevail!
What?)>>
It's not that I would rather see Ron/Harry than H/H; it's just that I think
it's more plausible. I see more evidence to support a Ron/Harry pairing than
I do for H/H.
Rina wrote:
>Hey, Captain Kathy, can I be amabassador for the good ship R/H? LOL I don't
think there's a pairing I >wouldn't go for.
Of course! Make sure to take lots of alcohol when you visit the Uboat
noshipper though---sounds like their customs demand lots of libations.
I wrote:
> Perhaps we should also advertise for a ship's psychologist to help out with
all that gentle deprogramming >of H/H-ers?
And Kelly responded:
>I'll volunteer. I've already stocked up on Professor Lupin's patented
"Dementor-Away" brand chocolate. >Works equally well on those chronic symptoms
of H/H ship-dom. "Here. Eat it. It'll help..." (Said in my >most Lupinesque
voice.)
You're on! Hear that, H/H-ers? Counselor Kelley is ready to see you now.<g>
Oh, dear, from the cars honking and fireworks going off outside, I am assuming
the Ravens just won the Superbowl. (I've been seeing people with purple hair
all week.I just can't get into at at all. In fact I went to my parents
Superbowl party wearing my team's hat: "Gryffindor Quidditch" And actually, I
checked my email in the other room while my relatives all shouted at the TV in
the other room. And they laugh at me for laughing out loud at the computer
screen when someone posts something funny!)
kimberly wrote:
>And Ron/Hermione seem like fun to me because neither of them *do* bottle
things up - they are both very >up-front with their emotions, and, while
volatile, I think it is healthy. When a point of contention comes >up, having
a wild row, getting it all out, and then getting over it and moving on to work
together toward a >common goal is not a bad thing if that is in your nature,
and it seems to be so for both of them.
I have been trying to find a book I read right after I got married that
postulated that there are 3 basic kinds of marriages: "Calm" (not the word the
author used, but that was basically what he/she meant); "Volatile" (that I
remember exactly); and "Dysfunctional". This author's position was that only
the third type was unhappy. In the Calm type, the partners do just about
anything to achieve consensus and very often are uncomfortable with conflict.
In the Volatile type, the partners often fight and scream at one another, but
then move on. In the Dysfunctional type, the screaming and fighting is about
sabotaging each other, not getting things out ing the open. I remember this
well because my husband and I most definitaly fall into the second category
and I felt it wasn't "right" somehow until I read that and realized that it
works for us. People in the first type would probably not feel comfortable
with that, but that's okay. Anyway, the point here is that R/H would
definitely be the second type. Maybe that's why it appeals to me.
Whew, that was really long. What can I say? Just so much good stuff to
respond to! Oh, and about the suggestion for the R/H-H/G catamaran, well, if
they're floating alongside us we can visit easily, don't you think?
A question: are there any R/H-ers who are violently opposed to H/G? Just
wondering. It seems like most R/Hers I have talked to have either been
fervently H/G along with R/H, or don't really care one way or the other.
Long live the Good Ship R/H!
Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who is hoping her subject line doesn't qualify as political
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 12:08 pm
Subject: Shipping through the cracks

Ahoy there, mateys!
Scott wrote:
> I guess that when it comes down to it I
>just don't like or relate to Ron. (I know that is no excuse) To a
>certain extent I also think that the character most like me is
>Hermione and so I want to set her up with the hero.
See, crew? They even admit it! ;)
I wrote:
<<Oooo, I want to read this Rina!>>
And Rina responded:
>Well, now, don't say that yet. LOL I really don't think it's what
>you'd expect. <g>
Oh, no, I do want to read it! Half of my favorite fanfics have been the exact
opposite of what I'd expect (And despite my rather strong R/H position-to put
it mildly<g>-half the authors on my favorites page are H/H. So I'll read
anything.)
I wrote:
<<It's not that I would rather see Ron/Harry than H/H; it's just that I think
it's more plausible. I see more evidence to support a Ron/Harry pairing than
I do for H/H.>>
And Rina responded:
>Really? Like what? I see evidence for both, but I can see evidence for
>just about anyone.
Well, I hadn't really said much more about it because I didn't want to get
into slashy arguments (not that they aren't valid or useful, I just personally
don't find them as interesting). I guess my main basis for this feeling is
that I think I see Harry being more reciprocally involved in an Ra/H pairing
than an H/H one. (And yes, the 2nd Task is probably a big part of that.) I
still don't see much evidence that Harry would develop feelings for Hermione.
I know those on the SS H/H have their points, and some of them I can see,
believe it or not <g>, but overall I just don't buy it. Sorry.
Rina wrote:
>Hee hee! Don't worry, I make the best martinis this side of the >Mississippi.
Some of them might be so enamored with my bartending
>skills that they'll follow me back to the Good Ship R/H. ; )
Somehow I think you're going to make a great ambassador!
Rina wrote:
>But maybe we all look at what we prefer in a relationship, and apply
>it to these characters? I think I do, sounds like Kathy might, and I >believe
Penny talked earlier about not seeing anything affectionate in
>the constant bickering. Any thoughts? I know it's a generalization,
>but I'm just curious if it's on target.
Well, you've pegged me right. That's why I find H/H (and the thought of Harry
as a boyfriend-did I mention how much identify with Hermione?) rather boring.

Marvin:
><risking heat> For that matter, I don't think it quite qualifies as
>shipping unless you've decided that you *want* to see two(or more)
>characters together. To merely read the words JKR wrote and
>say, "Aha! I see evidence that Ron likes Hermione!" isn't quite
>shipping. That's just reading. OTOH, to say, "Aha! See this
>evidence that Hermione reciprocates Ron's affection? In your face,
>SS H/H!!" *is* shipping. :-)
I think this is on target (btw, I love that last line!). I think true
shipping involves a certain manic passion. <g>
marvin again:
>How about this analogy; I see the noshipper fan as a kind of literary
>sports analyst, watching the game and trying to understand the play
>and possibily even predict/infer the outcome without actually rooting
>for a particular team/outcome. It's like watching a game between
>teams neither of whom is *your* team, so you don't have to be fully
>invested in the outcome and instead you just cheer whenever you see a
>good play.
Well, if that works for you.maybe I'm just too far gone, but I can't
understand being that detached about it. (OK,so, yes, I am too far gone.don't
rub it in.) ;)
Star wrote (of DrMM's parallel theory):
>really? I don't see that at all. I at least don't see any parallels >between
Hermione and Mrs. Weasley, yes Mrs. Weasley had a bit of a
>temper and likes to follow the rules like our dear Hermy but I still
>see Hermione and Molly dear as being alot different.
Actually I see a lot of parallels, and I am looking forward to reading DrMM's
take on things. Mostly I see the relationships as similar, the way the two
females keep the two males "grounded" so to speak. It strikes me that Ron has
a nice healthy fear of Hermione at times (in PoA, he says something sarcastic
while she's studying for finals, but "very quietly"). Maybe it's a fear of
upsetting her, I don't know, but I see Arthur reacting to Molly in the same
way. I don't know-I'll wait and see what DrMM has to say before I blather on
any more.
Mo wrote:
>As for the
>Crookshanks/Scabbers incident - IMO Hermione was acting insensitive and
>spoiled. Crookshanks was trying to attack and possibly eat Scabbers. She
>continued to poo-poo Ron's concerns saying "that's what cats and rats do."
>That really irked me. So what if Ron is mad for a while? Shouldn't he have
>some time to mourn? His pet is missing and presumed eaten, and I >personally
believe he had the right to be angry.
I actually agreed with a lot more from this message, but I had to snip
something or this post would be even longer! Anyway, I think this is a good
point that hasn't been made often enough. Hermione isn't perfect, as we well
know, but she could at least show a little sympathy. Even Harry thinks Ron
was right that Crookshanks ate Scabbers. Ron gets a lot of flack for being so
stubborn, but let's not forget how stubborn Hermione can be too. As for the
Goblet of Fire argument, well, anyone who's read my story can tell you what my
interpretation of that is. Suffice it to say, I think Harry was equally at
fault.
Penny wrote:
>So .... I think Hermione & Sirius are more alike -- bright, fiercely
>loyal & steadfast, etc.
In the interest of space, I have snipped a lot of this, but I think you have
some good points about Hermione's loyalty. She is very good at keeping
secrets, as we have seen. While I do think that loyalty is a strong trait for
her, I am not sure if I would describe her as "fiercely" loyal, the way I
would describe Ron. I don't know.maybe it's just a matter of personality.
Penny wrote:
>I'm playing fair! Honest! Actually, I think I took "denigrate" to mean
>"criticize." Having just looked it up, it means more to "defame." So,
>okay, just to clarify ... I can visit the Good Ship R/H without fear of
>being forced to walk to the plank if I criticize Ron (or another
>Weasley) as long as I don't cross the line into defamation? I think I
>might want a clear standard of defamation before boarding the Good Ship
>R/H in any case. <vbg>
OK, here's what's posted by our gangplank:
Welcome Aboard the Good Ship R/H!
While aboard our ship, please note the following rules and regulations:
1) No defamation of Weasleys will be tolerated. This includes, but is not
limited to, implications that Ron is less than Harry, suggestions that Ron
will turn evil and betray his friends, and the like. The penalty for this
will be walking the plank, to be administered immediately to violators by
First Mate Mo (who can be very surly, so watch out!)
2) H/H-ers are welcome to visit for brief periods, but they minute they try to
convert crew members, they will be keelhauled. Be warned, if an H/H-er stays
for an extended time, he or she may be led away to our clinic by Counselor
Kelley for gentle deprogramming.
3) The suggestion that Hermione should be with Draco is cause for immediate
loading into one of our canons (yes, canons) and being launched over to the SS
Leather Trousers.
4) The SS H/G travels alongside the Good Ship R/H for protective purposes.
Any visitor who is unable to be nice to the H/G is advised to remain on the
port side of the ship away from temptation to taunt. Anyone taunting the crew
of the H/G will find themselves burping slugs for several hours.
5) Watch out for the Canary Creams.
Actually, maybe we should just post the "Daily Affirmations" from the
SugarQuill...they seem to say it all!
Penny wrote (about Harry's gratitude to Hermione):
>Well, he might not have "thought" it out loud for the reader. But, >he
>did say to Hermione, "Hermione, I need your help! I need to learn >how
>to do summoning charms properly." In other words, he knows she'll >help
>him -- he knows he can count on her. Yes, it'd be nice if he told >her
>so, but I figure his actions (reliance on her when the going gets >tough)
>speaks for him in alot of ways.
To me, that's not gratitude, that's taking for granted that she'll help him.
Of course she will, but if I were Hermione I would resent the hell out of the
fact that he never says thank you. And he doesn't even seem to notice that
Hermione is treating him a lot better than Harry had treated her when she and
Ron were fighting. I know what you're going to say: Harry did try to patch
things up. Yeah, once or twice, in how many months of not speaking to her?
Hermione was very clearly going back and forth trying to get Ron and Harry to
speak to each other the whole time. (And, as much as it's been argued here, I
still don't think she "chose sides" during that fight by spending time with
Harry, as it seems to me she spent time with Ron too, but that's another
argument).
I wrote:
>Does anyone think that H/V is really going to happen, or was it >just a
> device to get Ron's feelings to the surface?
And Penny replied:
>You really think Hermione agreed to go to the Yule Ball with Viktor >to
>try & get Ron to notice her? <snorts with laughter> Her actions >at the
>Ball speak differently. IMO, she genuinely was pleased that >someone had
>noticed her as a girl, and I don't think she's the type person who >would
>go in for that sort of ploy.
Actually, Penny, I was referring to the whole Viktor thing as a "ploy to get
Ron's feelings to the surface" from JKR's point of view, not Hermione's. For
the record, I absolutely don't believe that Hermione would do something that
petty. I think it entirely possible that she assumed/maybe hoped that Ron
would ask her, and was really irritated when he made the pair of trolls
remark, and that may even have pushed her decision to go with Viktor. (This
is the situation in my fanfic anyway). But I don't think, as some of the
reviews I have gotten seem to indicate, that she would go with Viktor out of
"revenge". I think she was flattered by Viktor's invitation, and maybe a
little disturbed (I would be, if a famous someone who was several years older
than me asked me to a ball and appeared to be so serious about me). In fact,
I do think Hermione has feelings for Ron (did you know that?<g>) but maybe
that she didn't admit them to herself, or even realize them until the whole
hoopla around the ball brought it out. And she is sure as hell not going to
admit it to him while he's being such an idiot. Another place where I think
Hermione's stubbornness, as well as Ron's, comes into play.
Anyway, more to the point, I was wondering if people think Viktor was a
literary device to bring out the tension between Ron and Hermione, or if he
will be important in later books. I'm still not sure whether I think that
Hermione will visit Viktor over the summer. I think if she did, it would be
as a friend, because I don't see her having a real interest in him
romantically. I think she likes him, and is interested in knowing him better,
but not necessarily romantically. (But, Ron doesn't know that, so it could
still be fodder for jealousy of course.)
I said:
> I, for one, am not "disquieted" by the idea of H/H; in fact, I think
> it's rather dull and too HGTG <grins at First Mate Mo>. I never
> understood why H/H-ers think R/H is "the easy way out" or some >such.
And Penny replied:
>Okay, I'll bite. What's HGTG? :--)
Hero Gets The Girl. Need I say more?
Penny wrote:
>R/H -- not definitely Volatile. Might well disintegrate into
>Dysfunction (just like Calm marriages could fall into Dysfunction >for
>different reasons). :--)
I could see R/H falling into Dysfunctional,just like any match could. But I
could see H/H doing the same thing, and faster. Ron and Hermione don't fight
ALL the time, you know. They are nice to each other a good portion of the
time. Just because they occasionally snipe at each other badly enough to send
Harry running to the Owlery doesn't mean they don't get along. Think about
all the times Harry comes back from Quidditch practice and there they are
studying or whatever and NOT fighting. Besides, about the
Harry-running-to-the-Owlery thing.well, just because Harry is uncomfortable
with it, that doesn't mean that Ron and Hermione are. They are both very
passionate people, and sometimes that means raising your voice. Most of the
"Calm" relationships I have seen personally seem to be that way mostly because
one or both of the partners aren't standing up for what they really want.
(Before you start the flame-throwers, I hasten to add that this is merely my
experience and I am fully aware that not all "Calm" relationships are this
way. I am merely try to explain why I prefer the "Volatile".)
Well that's another way-too-long message from me...I'm headed down to the bar
for one of Rina's margaritas.
Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 11:26 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Shippy drinks


These are *fantastic*, Rina! I am going to try them out this weekend. (the
R/H ones anyway!) You are hereby appointed the Head Bartender on the R/H
(when your duties as Ambassador permit of course...maybe we'll have to make
you Head Beverage Creator and get you an assistant!)
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who really is beginning to feel that business cards reading "Captain of the
Good Ship R/H" would be much more interesting than ones that say "Children's
Services Supervisor", though they would probably earn her strange looks at
library conferences.

From: "Zsenya" <zsenya@y...>
Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:38 am
Subject: Re: Shipping Through the Cracks - Daily Affirmations

Kathy - can we incorporate the good ship R/H rules onto SugarQuill right now?
(I'm cc-ing you on this in case I fail in posting it to the list - I'm still
having problems) Here are our Daily Affirmations at sugarquill.com. There are
a few more that I need to add. It's all in good fun...Our mission statement can
be found at http://www.sugarquill.com/spew.html It's a bit elitist I know, but
these affirmations are what started the whole site for Arabella and myself. And
it's not entirely true anymore, we try to be nice to everyone.
Also, Rina - love the drinks - am very happy that the Ron/Hermione ones involve
a lot of Vodka (my personal favorite...) - may we incorporate those into our
site somehow as well?
:)Zsenya
SugarQuill.com's Daily Affirmations...
1.. Harry and Hermione is a ridiculous IMPOSSIBILITY. Harry is allowed to date
Cho, but will end up with Ginny.

2.. The Weasley family RULES (especially Ron, whom it will be okay to lust
after outward in the seventh year- for us older gals, I mean)

3.. Hermione is NOT whiny. She is a bit bossy, but she is so smart that she
deserves to be

4.. She and Ron also do not fight to the point of tears EVERY DAY. Sometimes,
they are nice.

5.. Ginny doesn't spend all her waking time giggling.

6.. Draco and Hermione - WHAT is with that?

7.. NO ONE is allowed to say that Ron will turn bad (Well okay, you can say it
- freedom of speech and all that. But we'll kick you out.)

8.. Sirius looks like Colin Firth (thinner Colin, but with Darcy hair) and
Lupin looks like...??? Suggestions welcome.

From: zsenya@y...
Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 12:10 pm
Subject: Re: Daily Affirmations of the Good Ship R/H

Penny (and everyone)
Well, bear in mind that Arabella and I created SugarQuill as an
extension of our own email obsessing and chat, and that this was all
conceived in good fun (and also so that we could archive all the fan
fic that we really like to read in one place, and also to encourage
writing in general). As I told one person who was posting under crude
names, since we pay for the site, we get to be dictators if we want. I
control the delete key, but I don't delete anything unless it is
crude, and off topic.
That said...I will respond accordingly
> > 1. Harry and Hermione is a ridiculous IMPOSSIBILITY. Harry is
allowed to date Cho, but will end up with Ginny.
>
> "Allowed"? I thought JKR was writing the books. :--)
Yes, but we're writing the fan fic!
> > 5. Ginny doesn't spend all her waking time giggling.
>
> How do you know?
Well, there's pretty good evidence in Book IV that she doesn't. She
comforts Ron in the common room very calmly and maturely.
> > 7.. NO ONE is allowed to say that Ron will turn bad (Well okay,
you
> > can say it - freedom of speech and all that. But we'll kick you
out.)
>
> Can I say Ron *could* betray Harry (even unwittingly)? There's a
> difference between speculating about possibilities and making firm
> predictions. I know I've never said "Ron will turn evil." I've
only
> speculated that there is the potential for him to betray Harry --
either
> unwittingly (falling into a Voldemort trap -- seduced by riches,
etc.)
> or because he was motivated by a fleeting emotion at the exact wrong
> time (jealousy over Hermione perhaps).
>
> My perception is that the R/H camp seems quite bent on being sure
Ron
> receives *no* criticism of any kind (while liberally dishing it out
to
> the other characters I might add). Is this zero-tolerance policy
> sanctioned by the leadership of the Good Ship R/H?
>
> Penny
You may say whatever you want - we welcome discussion! The "Ron will
turn evil" quote was created by ourselves as worst case scenario. We
do criticize Ron on our discussion boards occasionally. Recently,
everyone has been speculating about how he will respond if/when he
finds out about what Harry did with the TriWizard earnings. In our
little worlds, he also behaves like a pigheaded jerk before accepting
Harry dating his sister
[Big Smiles here....] :) :) :)

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:29 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Shipping Through the Cracks - Daily Affirmations


Zsenya wrote:
>Kathy - can we incorporate the good ship R/H rules onto SugarQuill right
>now? (I'm cc-ing you on this in case I fail in posting it to the list - I'm
>still having problems) Here are our Daily Affirmations at sugarquill.com.
>There are a few more that I need to add. It's all in good fun...Our mission
>statement can be found at http://www.sugarquill.com/spew.html It's a bit
>elitist I know, but these affirmations are what started the whole site for
>Arabella and myself. And it's not entirely true anymore, we try to be nice
>to everyone.
Oh, Zsenya, darling, of course you can! (Actually most of them were inspired
by your Daily Affirmations anyway, just put into nautical terms).
And for those (Penny <g>) who think the Good Ship R/H has too many rules, I
would point out that every ship has standards of behavior; we just post ours
and make them known. We never said it was suppression of freedom of speech;
we merely said if you want to do any Weasley-bashing, do it on your own ship.
:)
Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
ready to head the liner over to SugarQuill island for a rest stop

 

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