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Or: Can You Guess Why We Started Our Own Site?

Gathered by Gryfny

Revision date: January 15, 2005

February 2001

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From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:59 pm
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Running out of cute shipping puns!

Fresh from her refreshing visit to the R/H spa on SugarQuill island, Captain
Kathy of the Good Ship R/H leaps back into the fray:
I wrote:
> See, crew? They even admit it! ;)
And Penny replied:
>"They"?? Or, Scott? See H/H'ers -- we get maligned as a group for >the
>opinions/perceptions of one of our members. :--)
Cause that never happens to R/H-ers, she replied sarcastically. (*And*, she
points out, she was kidding in the first place.)
Penny again:
>Funny that two obviously very different people (me and Kathy) could
>identify so strongly with Hermione. Makes Hermione all that much more
>interesting, doesn't it?
Well, Penny, we are both grown adults obsessing over the future love lives of
fictional characters, so I'd venture to say we're probably more alike than
some might think. ;)
Penny wrote:
>Is there such a thing as a "nice healthy fear" of your
>partner/mate/love-of-your-life? Not in a Calm marriage (IMO).
I meant more that Ron has a nice healthy fear of what she thinks (although he
doesn't know it yet). Her opinion matters to him.
>Too many rules/regulations! I'll just stay aboard the low-key, >Freedom
>of Speech is always tolerated Cruiseliner H/H -- thanks. :--)
You know, perceptions really are everything, I guess. Having traveled in some
H/H circles myself, I can say with all honesty that I never especially felt
such a "Freedom of Speech" thing going on. . . but then, I wound up defecting
and rising to captaincy (is that a word?) of the R/H, so I guess that says
something. (Not sure what, but something.)
Penny:
>When? When did she spend this time with Ron? From what we see in >GoF,
>she ate all her meals with Harry, she walked to classes with Harry, >she
>sat in classes with Harry (or occasionally between the two of them >early
>on in the fight), they studied in the library together, they went to
>Hogsmeade together .... in short, I see very little opportunity for >any
>Ron time.
And, yet, somehow, according to your very own post, she managed to tell Ron
"several times" that Harry didn't put his name into the Goblet. When , if she
didn't spend any time with him?
Penny again:
>Let's see this HGTG cliche is *bad* in the R/H world, but the sappy
>OBHWF cliche is perfectly fine? :--)
Actually, I myself have posted several times on why I think the OBHWF theory,
while appealing, is unlikely. And I do agree that both Harry and Hermione are
already part of the family. As Kelley has already pointed out, JKR could
certainly do OBHWF without succumbing to clich‚. No doubt JKR could do the
HGTG clich‚ with as much freshness as she could do OBHWF or any clich‚, for
that matter. I just hope not, because it wouldn't ring true to how I see the
story. (I hear tell that one or two people see it differently, though. <g>)
Penny again:
>My perception is that the R/H camp seems quite bent on being sure Ron
>receives *no* criticism of any kind (while liberally dishing it out to
>the other characters I might add). Is this zero-tolerance policy
>sanctioned by the leadership of the Good Ship R/H?
While aboard our ship it is (and on SugarQuill Island). Just curious, where
do you see this unfair criticism being dished out by the R/H crowd? The only
thing I can think of you are referring to is the strong anti-Draco stance.
(But come on, he did say he wanted Hermione to die, you can't really expect
him to be popular, can you?) Anyway, the point is, R/H-ers tend to be very
protective of Ron. He's our guy. In the past, H/H-ers have made some very
anti-Ron statements. Anyone is, of course, free to say whatever they want
about any of the characters. Just don't expect us to like it or agree with
you. The SugarQuill is a private resort, so to speak; Zsenya and Arabella can
feed heretics to the sharks there if they want (OK, so this metaphor is going
a little overboard, but you know what I mean!) The Good Ship R/H is happy to
share waters with other ships; just don't come aboard and start
Weasley-bashing, because that'll tick us off. In the meantime, I won't go
aboard the SS H/H and start telling you how boring I find Harry (I'll just
shout it to you from across the waters <g>). Bottom line is, if you're happy
on your ship, no one's forcing you to visit other ones. But if do go
visiting, be nice and follow local custom.:)

Amy Z wrote:
>Anyone think that Molly is ticked at Hermione not only for throwing
>over Harry dear, but also for not tumbling to the fact that Molly's
>Ronnikins loves her? (Mothers have a talent for knowing we like
>someone before we even know it ourselves.)
Actually, you may be surprised to hear that no, I don't think this is the
case. (What? Did Kathy just say that?) Actually I'm not sure that Molly does
realize Ron's feelings; I think she's much more concerned about Harry. I
think Molly underestimates Ron as much as the H/H camp does. But that's
another thread.

Kimberly wrote to Penny:
>Wow,
>You may have a Calm relationship with your hubby, but I think you and
>Kathy are a few steps into the Volatile category! :D
Oh, dear, Penny, we just have to make sure we don't slide into Dysfunction!
Cassie said:
>I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has feeling
>for Ginny -- if anything he pretty consciously shuts her out of the
>Trio); as for G/H, although it is blindingly obvious that Ginny likes
>Harry, I'm not sure what significance to gift that with.
And I see no evidence that he likes Hermione, but that doesn't stop people
from believing in H/H either.
Scott wrote:
>--But what if I think that Ron WILL turn bad and betray Harry. Ok I
>don't think that it's a given, but it COULD play out. After GoF I
>can see the seed there. Not that Ron isn't Harry's friend as much as
>he was, but their fight, well it was totally uncalled for. I mean it
>doesn't even make sense that Harry would have put his name in the
>goblet. Hermione believed Harry. Does she trust Harry more, or am I
>missing the concept?
There was a time when I actually thought it possible that Ron might betray
Harry, but after rereading the books more, I just don't see it. He's far too
protective of Harry and willing to sacrifice for him. The Chess game in SS/PS
has been hashed over endlessly, but what struck me recently were the scenes in
PoA Ron pushes Harry out of the way when the dog attacks (Ron doesn't know
about Sirius yet of course) and the way he stands up for him in the Shrieking
Shack ("You'll have to kill all 3 of us!). I just can't see someone who cares
about his friend that much betraying him. It just doesn't tally with Ron's
character at all, IMO.
That said, I must say with reluctance that I think it far more likely (and it
pains me greatly to say this) that Ron will not make it to the end of Book 7
alive. We have already seen a few instances where he willingly "sacrificed"
himself for Harry, and I suspect there's some foreshadowing there. (And also
very poignantly in the fact that Ron was the thing Harry would miss the most.)
I am hoping against hope that this scenario does not play out, because I
would be devastated personally, much more so than if Harry died. It doesn't
bear thinking about.
Parker said:
>There has also been, in this shipper debate a lot of talk about how
>Ron is always the one defending Hermione. Harry does too, guys!
>Again, it's in GoF and it's what causes Hermione's teeth to grow.
>Draco (as usual) says something sarcastic about Hermione and Harry
>hexes him. Draco hexes Harry and Goyle and Hermione end up being
>hexed instead.
I must respectfully disagree here. The passage following Draco calling
Hermione a Mudblood reads:
"Some of the anger Harry had been feeling for days and days seemed to burst
through a dam in his chest. He had reached for his wand before he'd thought
what he was doing" (GoF, UK ed, p. 262).
To me, this indicates that Harry was taking out a lot of the tension he had
been feeling on Malfoy. Not to say that he wasn't genuinely angry that Malfoy
insulted Hermione, but to me it read more like an excuse to let out his anger
than a genuine defense of Hermione. (And I might point out that Ron is the
one who hurries forward to check on Hermione.)
I am still fascinated by all the differing perspectives here! Well, that's
what keeps it interesting!
Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: bbennett@j...
Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 11:32 pm
Subject: Re: ships, Ron, etc.

Cassie wrote (re: SugarQuill):
> There's a middle ground between Weasley-bashing and utter
Ron-worship, and I get the feeling that even that middle ground
wouldn't be tolerated. >
Well, I hang out there and I it's known that I *obssessively*
follow your stories AND have recommended PoU, so if they
tolerate me, it can't be too bad, can it? :*) Really, There's been a
lot of interesting conversation at Sugarquill, and Ron is most
definitely not hero worshipped (ok, maybe a joking comment or
two. And talk about the Weasley's pretty red hair. But that's it - I
promise). You mentioned you got this impression from posts to
HP4GU, but I see very few SugarQuill "regulars" who are active
here (Kathy and Zsenya aside. Hi Kathy! Hi Zsenya!). You should
stop back to visit sometime - it's a great site.

Penny wrote:
> Thanks Cassie! There's definitely a middle-ground, and that's
where I fall. I don't think it qualifies as "Weasley-bashing" to
consider the theoretical possibility that Ron's jealous insecurity
& obvious desire for wealth and recognition might make him a
very vulnerable target for Voldemort & the dark side. But,
anything short of "Ron would *never* betray his friend Harry, not
under *any* circumstances" seems to be labelled as
"Weasley-bashing." >
I don't think that's Weasley bashing either, and it's an interesting
theory. I personally don't see from the books that being jealous
of his consistently in-the-limelight-famous-best friend, coming
from a poor family and wishing for more money, or being one of
seven children and feeling overlooked is indicative he'll betray
his friends - all of those reactions seem normal for a kid with
those kind of things going on, and I think he's handled his
emotions reasonably and realistically well (albeit after acting like
- what's the phrase Cassie's Draco uses? - a speccy little git).
But I suppose I could be wrong :*)
Penny also wrote:
> I was just noting that R/H types don't have any
problem criticizing other characters but they seem to fairly bristle
at the slightest criticism of Ron. This criticism that gets dished
out to the other characters from R/H types extends not only to
Harry (everything from boring to inconsiderate/selfish) and
Hermione (bossy know-it-all hen-pecking shrew, who
nonetheless "should" be paired up with Ron (inexplicably)) but
also to Sirius and a wide variety of other characters. I know I can
be touchy about Hermione, but I usually support what I'm saying
with reasoned arguments from the canon (as to why she isn't
bossy still, etc.) or at least that's my intent. Don't get me wrong:
it's perfectly fine for people to think Harry is selfish or Hermione
is bossy & to post their reasons why. But, I just don't understand
why *any* criticism of Ron should be met with such emotional
"how dare you" reactions from people.>
See my "speccy little git" comment above. Ron can definitely be
a brat, and so can Harry (I can't criticize Hermione because I
sympathize with her and I think she's right to boss Harry and Ron
around - honestly, they need all the help they can get). I've read
the same sort of "how dare you" reactions regarding criticism of
Harry here and on the PoU list, so it's not an exclusive trait.
You're right, Penny - we can all get a little too wrapped up in the
process of defending our favorite characters.
> > Cassie said:
> > > >I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has
feeling for Ginny
> > Kathy: And I see no evidence that he likes Hermione, but that
doesn't stop people from believing in H/H either.
> > Cassie: And I see no evidence that Hermione likes Ron, but
that doesn't stop people from believing in R/H.
> Penny wrote:
> Thanks Cassie! <eg>
I agree with Cassie - I haven't seen evidence in the books that
Harry likes Ginny, either, and as it's been brought up here before,
her character simply hasn't been fully fleshed out enough yet. I've
enjoyed reading fan-written interpretations of her very much, and
it'll be interesting to see what's done with her in the next book. As
for Hermione and Ron, the reason I've personally written things
with a R/H slant is because that's what I picked up from the book
(he likes her and vice-versa, although he's more obvious). The
books are written from Harry's POV, and since we know how he
feels about other characters, it seems we would also know if he
likes Hermione as more than a friend. I suppose there's no
reason that won't change (that JKR said there's something going
on between R&H aside), but I haven't seen evidence of that yet.
Of course, I also understand some think that because Harry
notices Ron's bare ankles he's hot for him, so maybe all of the
R/H H/H people are in for a surprise. :*)
Regards,
B.
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 3:34 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Any more room on good ship R/H?

College Girl wrote:
>Hi. I go as College Girl at ff.net and Sugarquill, and I've heard a
>lot about this site. Anyway, I love the ship analogies. I probably
>won't post much, just wondered if you had room for one more on the
>good ship R/H.
Of course! There's always room for one more! Welcome aboard!
>I should warn you though, being also a very big H/G supporter, I may
>have to hop from boat to boat.
That's okay, we travel together, so you can go back and forth easily.
Be warned though, we've been experiencing some choppy waters. Make sure you
wear your life vest!
Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 6:25 pm
Subject: SHIP: Same Ship, Different Day

It's Captain Kathy, back with more terrible puns on the word "ship"!
Penny said:
>This criticism that gets dished out to the other characters from R/H types
>extends not only to Harry (everything from boring to inconsiderate/selfish)
>and Hermione (bossy
>know-it-all hen-pecking shrew, who nonetheless "should" be paired up with Ron
>(inexplicably)) but also to Sirius and a wide variety of other characters.
Actually, I believe it was Elizabeth who made the hen-pecked comment, though I
don't recall her ever using the word "shrew". And Elizabeth has made it clear
that she does not travel on the Good Ship R/H, but rather prefers to take
refuge on the U-Boat No Ship. I have been doing an informal survey, as Penny
suggested, and I have yet to find any Hermione-haters among our crew.
As to the Sirius bit, did I miss something? (I'm not being sarcastic here,
I'm honestly wondering.) I don't recall anyone criticizing Sirius any more
than Ron, in fact the recent thread has mostly been comparing the two. (Maybe
it's comparing him to Ron that you consider the insult? <g> Just kidding,
just kidding, I know you don't hate Ron!) Some people have mentioned that
they thought he was rash or had a temper, but that's true of Ron too, and we
love him. Or were you referring to something else?
Penny wrote:
>I don't think I said "several"
>times, but I do think she tried to do some go-between mediating early >on
>in the fight. When it became apparent that neither of them were
>listening, she chose to spend her time with Harry. I still think that
>Hermione spent virtually all her time with Harry during this fight --
>after the initial mediation attempts failed -- I can't imagine when >she
>might have had any chance to be with Ron otherwise given that she was
>with Harry at meal-times, in between classes, during classes, etc.
Though you have a point, I still disagree. From GoF, UK ed, p. 277: "Hermione
was furious with the pair of them; she went from one to the other, trying to
force them to talk to each other. . ." To me, this indicates that she didn't
give up. True, she clearly spent most of her time with Harry, but I maintain
that that was because Ron monopolized all of Harry's other friends and she
wasn't about to abandon Harry. Another point about loyalty: I agree with you
Penny (yes, I said agree!) that Hermione is very loyal, and I don't think she
would give up on Ron anymore than she would Harry.
Cassie wrote:
> Cassie again: But I don't actually think Penny would mind if you did
> come aboard the H/H and announce Harry was boring (which actually I
> think you
> have, over on the PoU list -- it could be considered an H/H haven,
> since all the listmoms are H/H.) It's your business if you find Harry
> boring (although suffering through a series of books about him, from
>his POV, must be tedious for you.)
And Penny added:
>That's correct. I wouldn't mind -- everyone is entitled to their
>opinion. Like Cassie, I don't know what appeal the series has for you
>if Harry is such a boring character. But, that's just my take on it.
><g>
Yes, but then I ducked back into the corner as quickly as possible. It's not
that I don't feel welcome on PoU; it's just that I see things from a different
perspective. I don't think anyone has ever said that you weren't entitled to
your opinions. I think the message was more intended to be "Keep your
opinions, just don't bash mine."
As to Harry being boring, well, clearly I don't find him completely boring, or
I wouldn't be an HP nut, now would I? I merely meant that I find him less
interesting than Ron or Hermione, and I find his love life even less
interesting.
And by the way, both the R/H ship rules and the SugarQuill Daily Affirmations
are intended to be joking, you do realize that right? Because I have gotten
the impression that a whole lot of people are not taking them in the spirit in
which they are intended.
And, by the by, there is no actual ship called the R/H, it's a metaphor, an
idea. So you can't really visit it. Ok, I know everyone knows that, but I
just needed to point it out, because I am wondering why everyone's getting so
worked up.
Penny said:
> There's definitely a middle-ground, and that's where I
>fall. I don't think it qualifies as "Weasley-bashing" to consider the
>theoretical possibility that Ron's jealous insecurity & obvious desire
>for wealth and recognition might make him a very vulnerable target for
>Voldemort & the dark side. But, anything short of "Ron would *never*
>betray his friend Harry, not under *any* circumstances" seems to be
>labelled as "Weasley-bashing."
OK, this comment drove me up the wall, because I, the Captain of the R/H, have
participated in several discussions on this topic and even posted a message
just a few days ago explaining why I once thought this theory a possibility
but no longer do. This is a topic that has been discussed at SugarQuill. So
I really think it's an unfair statement.
> Cassie said:
> > >I see no H/G in the books (i.e., indications that Harry has feeling
>
> > >for Ginny
> >
> Kathy: And I see no evidence that he likes Hermione, but that doesn't
> stop people from believing in H/H either.
>
> Cassie: And I see no evidence that Hermione likes Ron, but that
> doesn't stop people from believing in R/H.
Well, I suppose I left myself open for that one! I was merely trying to point
out that you can't use "A likes B, we don't know about B's feelings for A" as
a basis for one ship, and discredit it as the basis for another. (I might
also point out that's there's a heck of a lot more canon evidence that could
be interpreted as Hermione-likes-Ron than there is for Harry-likes-Hermione,
regardless of how you choose to interpret it.)
Penny wrote:
>I don't necessarily see it as an intentional knowing betrayal at all.
>I just think Ron has the potential to be blinded by his desire for
>wealth & fame to the point of unwittingly falling into a trap set by
>Voldy & his death-eaters. ::::shrugs:::: It's a *possibility* in my
>mind.
And this is the reason that I once thought this possible too. Ron does have
weakness, after all. (See, I criticized Ron! <g>) But I really think he's a
stronger character than that. As for the betrayal-over-Hermione thing, I
think I posted at length on that thread a few months ago, but I really have
come to feel that he would value his friendships with both Harry and Hermione
more than that (even if Hermione didn't like him back ;)
Penny wrote:
>And Ron never reacts (or defends Hermione) because of pent-up anger?
><g> Sorry, but I agree with Parker -- Harry was clearly defending
>Hermione in this scene. Ron rushed toward Hermione while Harry was
>still "engaged in battle" so to speak. "Harry *turned* and saw Ron
>dragging Hermione's hand away from her face ...." It's not as if >Harry
>just vented his anger and didn't bother to see what happened to >Hermione
>after all was said & done.
I never said that Harry wasn't defending Hermione, I was merely pointing out
that that wasn't the only thing he was thinking (or even necessarily the first
thing he was thinking). And I do agree that many of Ron's reactions are
pent-up anger, but we have seen a whole lot of times where he goes after
anyone insulting her, and I don't believe every single one of them is due to
his repressed ire. The bottom line is, they're both her friends, regardless
of any other feelings any of the 3 of them may have, so of course they'll both
defend her. It's not necessarily evidence of H/H or R/H or anything else for
that matter.
Scott wrote:
>I'm not even saying that I think Ron will betray Harry knowingly
>(that is if he does). Perhaps someone that Ron trusts will trick him.
>Or perhaps in a moment of anger he'll let something slip and then try
>to fix. If he does betray Harry in some way I can see him coming
>back and trying to fix things, or dying heroically trying...
<groans and covers eyes> And that's exactly what I am afraid of, and the
reason I will probably read each of the next 3 books in one sitting, on pins
and needles.
Scott again:
>WOW, I actually agree with you here! (goggling at the fact). For all
>practical purposes the death of Harry would also be the end of the
>canon. If Ron were to die then the reader would experience Harry (and
>Hermione and everyone else's pain) at the experience as well as
>feeling their own pain. This could easily make it more difficult.
Can't respond. . . Too choked up. . . See above
B. Bennett wrote:
>You're right,
>Penny - we can all get a little too wrapped up in the process of
>defending our favorite characters.
Hoo boy, ya think? <g> You know, the people in my 3-D life never believe it
when I tell them about the conversations on here! It is actually quite
comforting to know there are other people as obsessed as I am. How did people
ever support obsessions like this before the Internet?
Firoza wrote:
>Just adding my small
>voice to G/H and adding my name to the Good Ship R/H (LOL, what a
>concept- ships/shippers, hilarious!).
Welcome aboard Firoza! Glad to have you!
Firoza again
>Now just to ramble a bit, I have read PoU, ASA, DD and enjoyed the
>stories, but their pairings quite frankly don't ring true to me
>(despite their awesome and talented writers).
That's exactly how I feel too. All of them are incredibly good stories and
very very well-written, but they don't fit my view of the characters. That's
not to say there's anything wrong with them at all; everybody has a different
perspective on the pairings, it seems.
Firoza again:
>So that is why I identify with R/H (bickering adds
>spice to life) and H/G (first crush/love CAN lead to a permanent
>relationship. My personal experience may happen rarely in the real
>world, BUT it is possible nevertheless :-)
LOL! I have known my husband since 4th grade and we bicker constantly (in
fact, my absence yesterday was due to some, er, volatile, moments over whose
turn it was to use the computer last night). So maybe that's why I prefer R/H
(although I still think my Harry-look-alike-broke-my-heart theory has a lot of
merit too!).
Firoza again:
>The Good Ship R/H,
>may it float forever :-)
Amen to that!
Signing off,
Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
Who just posted part 12 of her story by the way (the Yule Ball scene) so click
here if you want to read it:
www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-read&storyid=162160&chapter=12
From: bbennett@j...
Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 10:59 pm
Subject: Re: FF: Fanfic Plugs
Penny wrote:
> I wanted to chime in & second Jeralyn's hearty
recommendation of our Ebony's ongoing "Trouble in Paradise"
series. I know I've plugged that one before, but it bears
repeating. It's amazing!!! >
To throw another plug in there, anyone who hasn't read
Arabella's HQoW (Hermione, Queen of Witches) is missing
something. She tackles each book from the point of view of
Hermione's journal, which she pulls off beautifully by making the
diary a character in itself. She does write Hermione as having a
growing interest in Ron - that aside (for the H/H contigent :*), her
characterizations are outstanding and true to canon. It is literally
like getting to read the books all over again, but with a new and
exciting twist.
> Penny (feeling very inadequate when stacked against such
great writing> ....)
You shouldn't. Your writing made me interested in Sirius.
Best,
B.
From: zsenya@s...
Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 9:29 am
Subject: SHIP: Clearing SugarQuill's name

As co-headmistress of SugarQuill, I'd like to jump in and say a few
things, and respectfully ask that the whole conversation tone down a
bit. It's all starting to feel very "ha ha I'm just joking you're
just joking" in a sort of evil undertone way.
Kimberly was entirely correct in what she wrote below:
------
I don't have any connection to Sugarquill, other than visiting the
boards there every few days, but from what I've observed, you may
well have gotten the wrong impression. Then again maybe I'm the one
that got the wrong impression - please, anyone who knows the details
of Sugarquill, jump in if I'm way off-base.I think their rules or
whatever they are were meant in a joking way, but have been taken
very seriously. Last time I visited there was a thread about what
will happen if Ron finds out that Harry gave the money from the
tournament to Fred and George and paid for his new dress robes. In
that thread there was definitely some amused discussion about what an
idiot Ron can be. But from what I can gather (and again, Sugarquill
people, if I'm off-base, correct me!) the people there are just
trying to enjoy themselves and celebrate the characters they love.
It's no different
from having a site for any other beloved fictional character or
group, in that I'm guessing they assumed that people choosing to come
there would be those who shared their enthusiasm, so the statments
made were almost definitely jokes, rather than attempts to impose on
anyone's first amendment rights ;). I think it was more a tongue-in-
cheek way of warning people that if they're not Weasley fans they
might not be interested. At least that's the way I took it.
-------------------
Zsenya back again - the original motivation for SugarQuill was
threefold. First and foremost, it is a website for writers.
Arabella and I love to write and we remember fondly our own high
school days when we spent a good portion of class time writing notes
to friends about how Duran Duran members were going to leave their
model wives for us, etc. We enjoyed a lot of the stories on ff.net
but were a little jarred by good ideas marred by spelling and
grammatical errors. We wanted to create a sort of beta-reading site
where people of all ages could submit their stories and we would help
edit them. We've found this to be extremely useful in our own
writing and wanted to encourage others so that, unlike us, they might
continue writing throughout their lives and not suddenly rediscover
it in their 20s like we have. Fan Fiction is a great way to
springboard into writing original stories, and we post those as
well. We both started of writing Jane Austen fan fiction, but felt
that a website with a Harry Potter base might appeal to younger
people.
This part of the site has worked beautifully. We've had over 30
submissions from people - the average age is 14 (we've been up and
running one month) and most seem generally happy for the advice. The
second motivation for SugarQuill was to have a place to archive our
own fics and those that we enjoyed reading, as well as to showcase
people who had submitted their fiction. We believe that no matter who
you are, you probably want people to read what you've written and we
wanted to give people that feeling of being "published." Now, the
third part of the site, the whole "Daily Affirmations" and SPEW page
was sort of added on at the end. We decided, hey, we'd like to have
discussion groups too, and you know, we're the ones paying
$14.95/month to Yahoo to host our site, so let's try to set a sort
of "tone" or mission for this web site. We like to read stories about
Ron and Hermione and Harry and Ginny. We've read PoU, and Draco
Dormiens, and others, and we think they're great (there're even one
or two Sirius/Lupin SLASH stories that I love), but at this point
we'd already developed all of the characters in our minds and we
wanted to make a way to sort of "specialize" the site. There are
hundreds of Harry Potter fan sites out there. We didn't find any
that were devoted to Ron so we decided to make that our priority, as
he is our favorite character, even though he can be a git sometimes.
They all can. They're 14 at this point.
Our discussion boards are open to anyone on any Harry Potter related
topic, but we actually have several boards, and our "Parseltongue"
(general discussion of anything) and "Pensieve" (reviews and story
discussion) boards are actually as heavily trafficked
as "Veritaserum" which is the Harry Potter one. We actually took off
the Daily Affirmations for a while, as we thought they were a bit
silly, but a few people asked where they went, so we put them back
up, as a part of SugarQuill history.
We *are* working on what we call "W.A.I.L" (thanks to Winky and Dobby
at ff.net) - the Weasley Adoration and Idolatry League - where we are
going to highlight each member of the Weasley family with quotes,
pics, stories, discussion etc. Since we are all very busy, this is
going to take quite a lot of time to accomplish, but people at
SugarQuill know we are working on it. There are plenty of sites out
there worshipping (that's a bit of a strong word I suppose) Harry,
and we love him too. But we admire the spunk and character of the
Weasley clan as much as Harry does, and maybe we're all just wishing
we came from large families of red-heads, but we thought this was a
good way to make our site unique. We don't love them
unconditionally. We're mad at Molly for snubbing Hermione in Book IV
(and yes, we believe it was on Harry's behalf), we are very, very
worried that Percy will choose the Ministry over his family, and, as
Kimberley mentioned, we can't see how Ron is NOT going to figure out
where Gred and Forge got their money and get upset about it. We hope
beyond hope that JKR will flesh out Ginny in future books and make
her as wonderful as we have in our fan fiction. It all makes for
interesting discussion.
Phew, this was long. I just wanted to point out that SugarQuill is
not the "anti-HP4GU web site" or the "We love Ron unconditionally"
website. It's just a very exciting and fun project that two friends
started two months ago and are very happy about.
Zsenya

From: Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin@s...>
Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 10:26 am
Subject: Re: SHIP: Clearing SugarQuill's name
Hi everyone --
Okay, I feel the need to step in here -- I do not care at all what
happens over at SugarQuill. It sounds like a wonderful idea -- really!
It has no connection to this group, so of course it goes without saying
that your Daily Affirmations and whatever else is discussed/enforced on
that site is completely up to the site owners.
It seemed to me that Kathy was adopting the SugarQuill Daily
Affirmations on the Good Ship R/H, which does sail waters near & around
HPforGrownups from time to time. <g> I only meant to point out that in
the interests of "Inter-ship cooperation" *on this group,* these Daily
Affirmations seemed a bit unwelcoming. That's *all* I ever intended to
say -- I think it's gotten way misunderstood at some point along the way
(as these subjects are wont to do).
But, it would naturally be very silly and inappropriate for me or anyone
on this group to suggest what the folks over at SugarQuill can & can't
discuss! Goodness! *That* would be an infringement of free speech
rights for certain.
I think your goals for the site sound wonderful Zsenya (the writing
workshop/beta reading, encouraging younger fanfic writers, etc.).
I did actually visit the site last night out of curiosity, and this all
looked very interesting. Of course, it goes without saying that I would
not be a welcome poster on your group, so I doubt I'd ever visit again.
<vbg> But, for those with a Weasley fascination and/or inclined to
support the R/H, H/G ships, it's a GREAT site!
Again -- my comments about the Daily Affirmations were intended merely
to note that *if* these Daily Affirmations were being adopted in
connection with this group, it would be rather unwelcoming. Kathy & I
have both been trying to encourage the "Shipping" debates on this group
to take a more light-hearted approach. So, I was attempting to jokingly
point out that having "Rules/Regs" aboard the Good Ship R/H was a bit
off-putting to the goals of light-hearted in tone shipping debates &
inter-ship cooperation.
I hope this will clear things up a bit!
Penny
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 12:05 am
Subject: SHIP: Ship Happens

Hi all! Captain Kathy sailing in from Annapolis Harbor, where I just got to
meet Zsenya and B. Bennett in person! I have to say it was very weird to be
able to talk Harry Potter to real live grown-ups. Both of them are just as
nice in person as they are online. (Hi guys!)
Firoza wrote:
>Hello again,Just a quick delurk here. Kathy/Elanor thank you for the welcome
>(I just finished Chapter 12 of your wonderful fic and it was amazing as
>usual!).
<blushes> Awww, gee, thanks Firoza! Glad you are enjoying it! I'm having a
ball writing it so it's nice to know other people are enjoying it too. And
enjoy your stay on our Good Ship!

As for the whole shipping-debate of late, I am in such a good mood that I
should probably just leave this thread alone, but there are several things in
recent posts I feel the need to respond to, so bear with me.
Cassie wrote (of the Affirmations/"R/H Ship Rules"):
>Even if they are joking, they do serve to further polarize us into
>opposing camps. Which, frankly, is beginning to be depressing. To me,
>anyway.
Actually, Cassie, I am finding it depressing as well. But I don't see how
jokingly stating a position is any different or more divisive than teasingly
referring to other camps as "misguided", etc. I realize that the inclusion of
the word "further" in your post indicates that you were referring to more than
just the most recent hoopla, which is fortunate, as I would rather resent the
implication that either Zsenya or I would somehow "polarize" the group.
Penny wrote:
>But, in any case, my basic point is
>that I have the perception that everyone thinks it's fine to criticize
>most any character, except Ron. Ron seems to be "off-limits" in the
>minds of some people. I just find that odd -- that's all.
And, again, I don't see that at all. I've already explained why, so I won't
go into it again. Perhaps this will have to be another one of those areas
where we agree to disagree. :)
Penny again:
>Isn't the number one R/H Daily Affirmation: "Harry and Hermione is a
>RIDICULOUS IMPOSSIBILITY." Is this *not* bashing my opinion? It's >not
>wildly important mind you -- just a question. It also sounds more >like
>"Keep your opinions but don't express them." (freedom of speech & all
>that but we'll kick you off if you bash a Weasley).
First of all, what if I do hold the above opinion regarding H/H? Does the
fact that I state it automatically bash your opinion? And again, I point out
that these are *tongue-in-cheek*, very similar to the "little dinghy" and such
comments that have been posted here about the Good Ship R/H.
Penny again:
>You're the Captain & all, but there are lots of other
>R/H shipmates who do seem to regard it as slander if one even admits
>that there's a possibility that Ron could unwittingly betray Harry
>(never mind what they would think about the possibility for an
>intentional betrayal).
I still have not seen evidence of this. Most R/H-ers, who tend to love Ron,
(as it kind of comes with the territory) may not want to consider the
possibility (I myself get slightly nauseous at the thought!<g>) but I haven't
seen the reaction you're describing. At least, that's my experience.
Granted, I haven't seen every message ever posted to every group on the
subject, but I feel the need to defend the R/H-ers on this list as the
fair-minded individuals they are. I don't think any of them would be here if
they didn't value other opinions and interpretations.
Zsenya wrote:
>I just wanted to point out that SugarQuill is
>not the "anti-HP4GU web site" or the "We love Ron unconditionally"
>website. It's just a very exciting and fun project that two friends
>started two months ago and are very happy about.
Thank you for posting this, Zsenya. I realize that it was my own mention of
SugarQuill's Daily Affirmations that dragged you into this in the first place,
and I apologize for that, though I am still not quite sure how my completely
light-hearted comments started all this controversy. (And by the way, now
that I have met her in person, I can say that Zsenya is just as intelligent,
thoughtful, and down-to-earth in real life as in her posts here. <waves to
Zsenya>)
Penny wrote:
>It seemed to me that Kathy was adopting the SugarQuill Daily
>Affirmations on the Good Ship R/H, which does sail waters near & around
>HPforGrownups from time to time. <g> I only meant to point out that in
>the interests of "Inter-ship cooperation" *on this group,* these Daily
>Affirmations seemed a bit unwelcoming. That's *all* I ever intended to
>say -- I think it's gotten way misunderstood at some point along the way
>(as these subjects are wont to do).
You got that last part right! But seriously, I still don't understand how the
just-in-fun "Rules and regulations" are any different from the teasing zingers
that H/H-ers throw out all the time (or for that matter, other teasing zingers
which R/H-ers throw out). (And, remember, Penny, you were the one who asked
for clarification of the "denigration" clause, I was just responding to your
request <g>).
Penny:
>Kathy & I have both been trying to encourage the "Shipping" debates on
>this group to take a more light-hearted approach. So, I was
>attempting to jokingly point out that having "Rules/Regs" aboard the
>Good Ship R/H was a bit off-putting to the goals of light-hearted in
>tone shipping debates & inter-ship cooperation.
As to the first sentence: yay! We agree on something! (That brings it up to,
what? 3? <g>)
As to the second, see above. To horribly quote Snape out of context: "I see
no difference."
Penny:
>I hope this will clear things up a bit!
As do I. As I am beginning to find this topic a bit exhausting, this will
hopefully be my last post on it (unless, of course, someone says something
which leaves me unable to keep my mouth shut. What, me? Never. <g>)
All that said, I just want to reiterate how much I have been enjoying the
whole ship-metaphor thread (it's giving me a chance to brush up on my nautical
lingo, if nothing else). I am sorry if this whole debate has put a sour taste
in some people's mouths about it, particularly as I am still not quite sure
what happened.
I, for one, will continue to man the helm of the Good Ship R/H with glee,
welcoming aboard anyone who'd like to visit or enlist, and waving merrily
across the waters to those on the decks of the SS H/H.

Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: morine10@a...
Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 10:35 pm
Subject: HGTG - don't take offense
> I always felt mildly offended by the reference to Hermione as "the girl".
> Frankly, I feel almost as irritated by reference to Ron as "the sidekick"
> and even to Harry
> as "the hero." IMHO, this strips down JKR's lovely complex characters
> into overly simplistic stereotypes.
>
First, I want to say that HGTG is not meant to degrade or belittle Hermione
in any way. We all know that Hermione is anything but a typical 'girl'. We
also know that Harry, Ron, and the rest of JKR's wonderful characters are
anything but 'simple.' Of course, I don't think for the purpose of
discussion that referring to them in those terms is in anyway offensive. Of
course that is just my opinion. :)
HGTG was a way (for me anyway) to understand the H/H stance. I really
thought of it quite some time ago when I only knew one other adult that had
read the books and the only H/H-ers I knew were preadolescent readers. (How
wrong was I?) I was under the impression that they were simply not old
enough to catch JKR's subtle hints at the budding R/H romance. It was my
assumption that they were oversimplifying and thought that since Harry was
the hero he should obviously be paired with the girl. Since Hermione is the
only strong, well-developed female character that is Harry's age, of course
she is the obvious choice. HGTG was born. Since I'm not easily offended
(and having just turned 30 I don't mind if anyone calls me *girl* <VBG>) I
simplified. Perhaps Hero Gets The Heroine (HGTH) is a better, more
politically correct phrase. Either way, don't read so much into it. I mean
really, you could say the same about FITD and whoever is dubbed the *cheese*!
Never was it meant to become so *controversial*, really! :)

-Mo
Peace, Love, Harry Potter ~8^)
From: bbennett@j...
Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 4:36 pm
Subject: Re: My Bertie Bott's "special" flavor experience...

--- In HPforGrownups@y..., "Jennifer Piersol" <jenP_97@y...> wrote:
> Hey all. I just did a search, and didn't find any flavor
> descriptions of the "Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans" that are
> made by Jelly Belly, so I thought I'd write down my recent
> experience with their new "special" flavors
I agree that the canteloupe flavor is disgusting, but can I just say
that I actually like the horseradish and pepper? I found the sardine
one to be much fishier that you did (that's the one I had to spit
out). The grass does taste like grass (in my opinion), and I'll
bravely admit that the booger indeed tastes like booger (or phlem,
actually. Yeah, I know. Gag).
I have a serious addiction problem to the strawberry jam flavored
ones.
Brian, I'm heading over to visit your page. Thanks for the link.
Regards,
B.
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:06 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] That boring Harry guy


Pippin wrote:
> I don't think I ever said canon Harry is boring. Canon Harry is a
>scrappy kid whose worst enemy is his own reputation. He's fascinating.
>I just find turning him into an adult super-hero kind of
>redundant. It's overkill, IMHO. Doesn't mean it can't be done well, I
>just think its unneccessary.

Thank you Pippin! I think I'm actually the one who started this whole
finding-Harry-boring (ducks head sheepishly) thing and that was really what I
meant. Of course Harry isn't boring; would I be wading through hundreds of
email per day about him if I really thought so? But as far as romantic
pairings, if I were to choose, I would pick fun-time Ron over boring Harry in
a second. (Hmmm, Fun Time Ron, a new action figure perhaps?)
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:14 am
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] My Bertie Bott's "special" flavor experience...


Jen wrote:
>and of course, I have about 7 "booger" flavored ones that I just am
>WAY too afraid to try. Anyone want me to send them a little baggie
>of booger-flavored jelly beans? There's no way I'm ever going to be
>brave enough to try them. ;)
Actually, the booger-flavored ones don't taste like much of anything. They're
just kind of bland.
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who has stayed away from her Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans after a bad
horseradish experience

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:34 am
Subject: SHIP: Viktor & Hermione sitting in a tree

Penny wrote:
>Look at Krum as an example -- granted we don't know for sure how things
>will play out between Krum & Hermione. But, my guess is that she was
>flattered to go to the Ball with him -- older guy, her first real date,
>he's a "big deal", etc. But, it seemed to me that she was a bit
>overwhelmed by how much interest he had in her after the Yule Ball, and
>I don't think she had serious intentions with regard to him. I think
>she was happy to go with him to the Ball and liked getting to know him
>but wasn't ready for serious relationship & all that.
Pssst! Hey Penny! We actually agree on something again! (I think that
brings it up to 4; we really should start keeping a list. <g>)
This actually made me think of something I wanted to bring up here. Penny, in
your review of one of the recent parts of my fanfic, you mentioned that you
had thought that Hermione had gotten to know Viktor fairly well before he
asked her to the Yule Ball. My assumption was that she had not, because a)
there were only a few weeks between the First Task (i.e. the time Harry would
have been in the library with her) and the announcement of the Ball and b)
Viktor and Hermione's conversation at the Yule Ball (i.e. him telling her
about his school) seemed very introductory to me, a topic they would have
already talked about if they had spoken at any great length. (Not to mention
the proper pronunciation of her name--Hermione doesn't strike me as the type
to let someone get away with that mistake for very long!)
Now granted, Viktor could have started talking to her as soon as Harry was
back on speaking terms with Ron and no longer hanging out in the library. And
realistically, Viktor was telling Hermione about his school and she was
teaching him how to say her name because the author needed the reader to see
those things. But still, my impression was always that they had spoken very
little, if at all, before Viktor asked her to the Ball.
I was just curious what other people thought?
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
P.S. Penny, thanks for reviewing my story even though it's against your
religion, so to speak. :) Also, thanks for pointing out the hole that I was
hoping no one would notice and motivating me to fix something that had been
bugging me. Zsenya helped me fix it and I'm going to upload the revised
version tomorrow.
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 11:35 pm
Subject: [HPforGrownups] RON (Changing the subject line b/c Harry's too boring for it ;)

> Kathy: But as far as romantic pairings, if I were to choose, I would
> pick fun-time Ron over boring Harry in a second.
>
> Amy: Oh wow, Kathy, this is fuel on the fire! Harry has the makings
> of a seriously attractive man. I don't mean the way he looks--I mean
> depth
> of soul.
>
>Penny:
>I think both -- attractive looks-wise (the geeks always turn out
>better-looking in adulthood) and personality/depth. Just look at PoU
>Harry for example .... <deep sigh>!

Well...as an unnamed crewmate mentioned recently, the only reason she could
stand PoU Harry was that he had so many Ron-like qualities in him. I
personally would take Ron any day...and anyone who thinks a Ron-type can't
have depth and personality isn't looking closely enough. Hey, B, where's that
chain-smoking-adult-Harry-in-therapy fanfic you envisioned? That would
support my argument nicely about now!
Anyway, this whole thing started with my perfectly innocent comment that I'm
starting to find Harry kinda boring, and it's true--I am really more
interested in the other characters' perspectives at this point. But I've said
this before, so I'll shut up now and dream of Weasleys...
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who dreams of having her very own Ron...
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 12:20 am
Subject: Yawn....Harry again... :--)

Oh boy, I knew I should have left well enough alone and kept my mouth
shut...but here we go again. ;)
I (probably unwisely, only because I don't think I have the time or energy
required to defend it) wrote:
> Well...as an unnamed crewmate mentioned recently, the only reason she
>could stand PoU Harry was that he had so many Ron-like qualities in him.
To which there were a bunch of responses I won't quote but which basically
said "you're crazy" <g>.
My reaction upon hearing this statement at first had more to do with my sense
of canon-Ron and a vague impression that it fit my feelings. After thinking
about it more, I think it has a lot to do with PoU Harry's utter focus on
Hermione, which I see as a distinctly Ron trait. And I also think that PoU
Harry enjoys public displays far more than canon-Harry would ever do, but that
this is something else I could see in Ron.
Of course, we can argue until the cows come home (and have) about different
interpretations of characters and different readings of canon, and much of
this is based on that. If we disagree on the readings of the original
characters, it stands to reason we would disagree on the extrapolated
personalities of the characters as they age.
I invite anyone who can be more coherent about this perspective to come forth,
because I am way overworked and overtired at the moment.
Penny wrote:
>Are you thinking that PoU Harry has characteristics that would apply to an
>adult fanfic Ron?
Actually that's a really good observation, Penny. I think this is a big part
of it. I am rather taken with the scenario that Harry settles down and does
something besides saving the world once Voldemort is taken care of, while Ron
has his chance to shine by doing something Important and Useful like fighting
evil. (Have I mentioned "The Best Man" series recently? <g> Incidentally, I
just heard Mrs. Weasley is working on "The Best Man 3" right now.I could
sing!)
Penny again:
>IMO, PoU is not just well-written from a technical perspective. It's
>also *believable* -- that's what has made it one of the most followed
>and beloved HP fanfics.
I am not knocking PoU. I do hope you realize that comparing PoU Harry to Ron
is a compliment coming from an R/H-er. (Hey, at least it's better than "You
killed Ron! You bad, evil person!" <g>)
carole wrote of Harry:
>If you don't see the depth of his soul...I'm not sure what book you are
>reading.
I never said that Harry didn't have depth of soul; I merely pointed out that I
think Ron does too. The two are not mutually exclusive.
carole again:
>Ok I missed something between arguing for a Ron personality and making a
>leap to therapy needing Harry. You seem to be implying that if Ron has a
>personality, then Harry would inevitably end up as a basket case? And how
>would a fanfic that implys this support the argument that Ron has depth and
>personality? I missed the in between there...Does one have to be bad to make
>the other good? Can we like both Ron and Harry?
Of course, which is what I have been trying to say. See above. And about the
basket-case thing: no, one does not imply the other. I was trying to explain
my reasons for finding Ron more interesting than Harry.
Penny again:
>Like Carole pointed out, you won't get the perspective of any other
>characters from canon.
Well, of course I know that. What I meant was I am interesting in thinking
about the other characters' perspectives. We already have Harry's; I really
enjoy trying to figure out what's going on the other characters' minds.
Penny again:
>I thought you just said yesterday that Harry wasn't all that
>boring or you wouldn't be trudging through all these emails every day.
>I must admit to a bit of confusion. I think you're saying that he's
>boring as a potential romantic partner but not so boring as a character
>that you can't stand to read about him???? Can you clarify? I confess
>to being a bit confused about the whole "Harry is boring" line.
Just what I've already said: I love Harry. Of course I love Harry or I
wouldn't be drafting this post instead of sleeping like I should be. But I am
also interested in the other characters, and at the moment, I am more
interested in them. I identify with Hermione and Ron much more than I do with
Harry, and I find them more interesting. I think I have mentioned before that
I am one of those R/H-ers who is mildly H/G, because to be honest I don't
really care who Harry ends up with. Saying "I'm starting to find Harry kinda
boring" was my glib way of saying all that. (Although, if I had known I would
have to write so much more about it, I probably would have kept my mouth shut.
Actually...I'm me, so I probably wouldn't have. <g>)
Cassie wrote:
>I don't think anyone said or implied that. I hope not. The outpouring
>of support for Harry and the statements that we don't find him
>boring, but instead very loveable, were not meant to denigrate Ron by
>extension.
Just like my (or any R/H-er's, for that matter) support or defense of Ron
doesn't mean denigration of Harry. (My flippant "boring" comment
notwithstanding, but I've already explained that, so let's not go there again.
;)

Hoping this cleared the fog a bit
(and hoping the fog doesn't turn out to be the smoke from the gunfire of the
next Shipping War! <g>)
Captain Kathy
Of the Good Ship R/H
AKA Elanor Gamgee
From: bbennett@j...
Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: Yawn....Harry again... :--)


Kathy, you're bad - you've got to stop with these subject lines. :*)
Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...> wrote:
> And I also think that PoU Harry enjoys public displays far more
than canon-Harry would ever do, but that this is something else I
could see in Ron.
An interesting comment, Kathy. One thing I also thought as I read PoU
was that Lori's Harry enjoys the spotlight a bit more than I
personally think he would (I think that after all he's been through,
he'd avoid anything he associates with "the limelight", including
speaking at a function such as at the end of PoU, regardless of the
audience). I suppose that is something I could imagine Ron relishing.
Of course, we all change so tremendously between 14 and (what is
Harry in PoU - 27?), and the death of a close friend would certainly
have been a personality-altering experience as well. Frankly, I was
so into PoU at that point, then even though I thought "well, I'm not
sure I agree with that particular aspect of the characterization", I
also thought "oooo, good story!!!".
Kathy wrote:
> Of course, we can argue until the cows come home (and have) about
different interpretations of characters and different readings of
canon, and much of this is based on that. If we disagree on the
readings of the original characters, it stands to reason we would
disagree on the extrapolated personalities of the characters as they
age.>
Absolutely. I see no (romantic) interest of Hermione for Harry in the
canon, so that colors my view of the characters. People who don't
think Hermoine is interested in Ron have completely different
characterizations in their heads. This of course carries over into
fan fiction. Actually, this is sort of the ultimate challenge, isn't
it? - to get someone to enjoy a story even if your characters or
situations aren't what they imagined.

> Penny wrote:
> >Are you thinking that PoU Harry has characteristics that would
apply to an adult fanfic Ron?
Kathy wrote:
> Actually that's a really good observation, Penny. I think this is
a big part of it.
Thinking back over PoU (the first fanfiction I read - it's been a
while!), I think I could see some of this too (that grown PoU Harry
might have some characteristics I'd imagine in grown Ron).
Kathy wrote:
> I am not knocking PoU. I do hope you realize that comparing PoU
Harry to Ron is a compliment coming from an R/H-er. (Hey, at least
it's better than "You killed Ron! You bad, evil person!" <g>)
If Lori wrote poorly, it wouldn't have been so upsetting to read
those scenes where Ron's death was discussed. I thought Lori's
handling of those sections was particularly outstanding.
> carole again:
> >Ok I missed something between arguing for a Ron personality and
making a leap to therapy needing Harry. You seem to be implying that
if Ron has a personality, then Harry would inevitably end up as a
basket?
Since this original comment was directed at me, I thought I'd better
throw in my 2 cents. During our meeting in Annapolis last weekeend,
we discussed concerns over Harry's mental state if he survives
everything the next few years have in store for him (and PLEASE let
him survive everything the next few years have in store for him!). I
would expect he'd need therapy (everyone involved would). I don't
think needing therapy after losing your parents to the world's most
evil wizard, spending 10 years of your life with an unloving family,
living in a spider-filled closet for the same amount of time,
unexpectedly finding out you're world famous, being annually attacked
by the same villian who killed your parents, inadvertently leading a
fellow student to his death, and who knows what else, means Harry
will become a basket case. I'd be in therapy for years just for the
spider-y closet thing <shudder>.
> Cassie wrote:
> >I don't think anyone said or implied that. I hope not. The
outpouring of support for Harry and the statements that we don't find
him boring, but instead very loveable, were not meant to denigrate
Ron by extension.
Kathy wrote:
> Just like my (or any R/H-er's, for that matter) support or defense
of Ron doesn't mean denigration of Harry <snip>
Of course not. Harry's wonderful. I 'think' in terms of R/H because
that's what I interpreted when I read GoF (and what JKR has hinted is
going on), but I love all three characters.
B.
From: bbennett@j...
Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 1:16 pm
Subject: Re: PoU Harry and the spotlight

Lori wrote:
> The comments regarding PoU Harry enjoying the spotlight made me
>think, and I always love comments that make me do that.
Your response made me think as well, so I went back and looked at PoU
again to see what specifically what I had in mind when I responded to
Kathy. I wanted to include all of your response, though, so please
scroll down and I'll continue my post there.
> It made me think about whether he does or not. So I'm considering
>evidence about Harry vis a vis international attention in PoU...and
>forgive me if I miss some points you're thinking of, even though I
>wrote the damned thing it's easy for me to forget details.
> 1. Harry works as an undercover agent and doesn't tell anyone what
>he does.
> 2. Harry and Hermione go out and attract attention while swing
> dancing...but that's just among Muggles.
> 3. Harry is asked to speak at the Friends and Former Pupils Gala by
> Sirius...however it's seen that his public speaking skills are
>rusty and so implies he doesn't do it a lot.
> 4. Harry and Hermione reluctantly grant an interview to the Daily
>Prophet about their relationship. >This would have been news no
>matter what he did.
> I'm not sure I've portrayed Harry as enjoying the spotlight, but
>neither have I described him actively >avoiding it. Honestly, I
>haven't given it much thought in the course of the stories.
>
> They way I *think* of it (which may or may not be the way it comes
>across on the page) is that Harry isn't as shy as he was at 14,
>after all he's more mature and has had plenty of time to get used to
>his fame. I don't see him as a glory hound but I don't see him
>being reclusive. I think he would accept his role in the wizarding
>world and the little foibles that go with it.
>
> Comments?
> Lori
OK.
I had to take one of those Myers Briggs Type Indicator tests the
other day for work, and as I was listening to the results and what
they mean, my mind started to drift and I began thinking of Harry and
friends (stop laughing, people, I know I'm not the only one who does
this). I see canon Harry as inherently introverted. It seems it's in
his nature to direct things inward. Compare this to Ron, who is vocal
on just about anything (the instructor said "If you don't know what's
on an extrovert's mind, you aren't listening, and if you don't know
what's on an introvert's mind, you haven't asked").
To me, your Harry reads as introverted (this doesn't necessarily
suggests a reclusive nature, although recluses are almost always
typed as introverts - I like your idea that as Harry ages, he
becomes less shy and more able to handle himself in the wizarding
world. I think this comes across in your story). Harry conceals his
profession (it doesn't seem as if hiding this is a difficult task for
him, it's in his nature to keep things private); he and Hermione
become good at swing dancing (a characterization twist that I loved,
by the way – I'd was in the midst of lessons when I started reading
your story), but the purpose seemed to be for enjoyment rather than
showing off); he seems taken aback at being asked to speak at the
Friends and Former Pupils Gala; and the interview he granted was
indeed reluctantly, and out of necessity.
All of these characterization traits fit in with how I see Harry, and
reading back over your story, I realized that my response to Kathy
(Harry seemed to enjoy the spotlight; seeming to have characteristics
in common with Ron) came from a small section in the last chapter.
It's when Harry announces that he and Hermione are going to get
married. Here, I found that part and snipped it out – I think I got
everything relevant:

*****
She met Harry's eyes and made a small motion with her hands, sliding
her thumb over her left ring finger...he realized that she had put
the ring back in its proper place. No one appeared to have noticed
except him. Harry's brow crinkled, the question in his eyes. Are you
sure? She nodded. Harry smiled and cleared his throat. "Now," he went
on. "Most of you know that for some time now I have been happily
filling the role of Hermione's boyfriend, but I think you should all
be aware that that's no longer the case." A shocked hush fell over
the audience. People looked around uncertainly. Hermione bit her lip
to hold back the chuckles. "I do believe that I must relinquish that
title now that she's agreed to marry me."
The uproar that went up at this statement made Hermione's eardrums
hurt. She just stood there grinning out at them and might have done
so for some time but for Harry, who upon dropping his bombshell had
hopped down off the stage and strode through the tables to her side,
whereupon he seized her about the waist, dipped her backwards in a
dramatic lunge and kissed her like Rudolph Valentino. Hermione was
struck by the absurdity of kissing Harry in the middle of the Great
Hall at Hogwarts in front of hundreds of their friends and
schoolmates, all of them whooping and cheering, but she didn't care.
She kissed him back, and if anyone had dared mention that she was
making a spectacle of herself she'd have told them to sod off.
****
Harry's actions announcing their engagement and in kissing her so
spectacularly read to me as being the actions of an extrovert, of
someone who enjoys and seeks the limelight. Of course, both
introverts and extroverts can have characteristics of the
opposite "type", but his actions seem to be quite extroverted. I
remember thinking as I read this that it didn't seem in character
with *your* Harry. It hit me funny. I don't mean to suggest that
Harry wouldn't take the gathering as an opportunity to announce the
engagement, but I imagined he would have been more discrete – telling
a few friends, letting it circulate around the room on it's own. I
think this is where I saw Ron in your Harry – I can imagine him doing
this before I can see Harry doing it.
I found this to be a momentary disappointment - after it happened,
the characterization continued as I had perceived it in the rest of
the story. I write with a R/H slant and tend to prefer R/H-slanted
stories, but very much enjoyed Paradigm of Uncertainty, and I've
recommended your story many times. Actually, I enjoyed it so much
that I think that's why this struck me – it was the only moment where
I thought your Harry jumped out of characterization on himself.
There – I think that's it. If you have any comments back, I'd love to
hear them.
Best Regards,
B.

From: bbennett@j...
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 1:30 pm
Subject: Re: SHIP: Questions for R/Hers...

Hi Angie,
I thought I'd jump in and take a stab at an answer. I'd love to
hear any comments, and let me know if I'm making any sense!
"Ebony Elizabeth Thomas" <ebonyink@h...> wrote:
> First question--
>
> One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to
debunk HGTG is that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves
something that he doesn't have... the girl."
> Validity of the above position aside... doesn't this reasoning work
most satisfactorily if the hero actually wants the girl, and the girl
(you have to admit the terminology involved in this position is
troublesome) chooses the alternate hero/sidekick over him?
I think there's been some misinterpretation as to what HGTG
means. I know I'm relatively new to HP4GU, but I've never
thought HGTG was offered to support the idea that Ron deserves
Hermione, but as a theory to explain why some people think Harry
will end up with Hermione. These are not exchangeable concepts (i.e.
saying you think HGTG is the reason people think Harry and Hermione
will pair up doesn't automatically mean you think HGTG is the
reason Ron and Hermione should pair up). Suggesting that Ron only
deserves to "get" the girl just because Harry is the hero
isn't rational, nor is it particularly fair to the characters
involved. Suggesting HGTG as a reason for the defense of H/H is just
a theory, but it can be reasonably analyzed and debated.
> ...it seems as if this would satisfy the R/H argument that "Ron
needs something that Harry doesn't have" to "Ron deserves something
that Harry doesn't have *and wants*."
>
> Since there is no canonical evidence whatsoever of Reversed FITD,
how does Ron Getting Hermione (winces again at the terminology)
fulfill the criteria set forth by R/Hers in the first place?
I'm not sure what criteria was set forth, and although I know
FITD is "Farmer In the Dell" (you all are so good with the
acronyms), I don't know what it means. You ask that you'd
like a better idea of the "opposite" side. Here's the way
I see it:
I read an attraction of Ron to Hermione. I do not see an attraction
on Harry's part toward Hermione; the story is written 3rd person
limited omniscient and we would be aware if he had feelings for her,
much in the same way we are aware of his attraction to Cho (or his
feelings for anyone else, for that matter). I don't see that
Hermione is attracted to Harry, but I do read that she's
interested in Ron, based on her reactions to Fleur, the ball, etc.
Actually, I went into GoF with my own assumption of Harry and
Hermione, and was surprised (and delighted, actually) when I saw that
Ron liked Hermione and, by my interpretation, that Hermione liked him
back. I really hadn't bothered to look for any relationship
patterning, and I thought JKR did a great job. I'm not trying to
argue ship either, just to tell you where I'm coming from. I
recognize that not everyone thinks this way, and that JKR could
change any of the above at any time.
> I'm not arguing my ship here. Please help me understand. And
don't fear a trap! Cassie's offline until at least Friday, Penny's
not posting very much, and the other H/Hers are quiet, gentle
souls. So here I stand, all alone... :::Ebony starts humming and
singing:::
Oh, stop it. <BG>
> Also, yesterday in chat I asked the crowd what an extrapolated,
paired-off future Ron and Hermione would talk about if they weren't
arguing. I got some silly responses that you'd have to check the
chat transcripts for, but the top three answers were: 1) Humdrum
everyday things... what do all couples talk about? 2) His work--
her work. 3) Talk? They'd be too busy shagging. ;o) (Of course,
all the H/H and no-shippers in the room ran away
screaming at that point.)
I think I might have run screaming too :*). The answer depends on
what kind of people they turn out to be. What would Harry and
Hermione talk about? Who knows? My good friends very much have a R/H
type of relationship, and they constantly challenge each other
intellectually. They bicker, but not maliciously. They make me think
of what canon Ron and Hermione could turn out to be, but of course,
this is just my POV. It all depends.
> I really want to make an honest attempt to understand the other
PoV, but my brain is *refusing* to think along those lines. I need
some help, please. As I'm on leave until next Monday, that means you
guys have one week to get me to jump ship. Who knows? Perhaps I'll
be traveling on the Good Ship R/H by March... don't look at me like
that! Stranger things have happened!
Well, even if you don't want to sail with us, come over and have
tea sometime. I make fabulous chocolate chip cookies. Now, please
get back to your story and put that leave to good use - I'm
anxiously awaiting the next chapter!
Best Regards,
B.

From: morine10@a...
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Questions for R/Hers...


Ahoy!
Ebony:
> One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to
> debunk HGTG is that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves
> something that he doesn't have... the girl."
>
BBennett:
> I think there's been some misinterpretation as to what HGTG
> means. I know I'm relatively new to HP4GU, but I've never
> thought HGTG was offered to support the idea that Ron deserves
> Hermione, but as a theory to explain why some people think Harry
>
Yes, it was never meant as a reason *why* Ron deserves Hermione (or why
Hermione deserves Ron <g>). I have *never* used the argument that Ron and
Hermione should be together because Harry has *everything* and Ron needs
*something*. That is ridiculous. What I have posted numerous times is this
-- (ship preference aside)
--HGTG is IMO simply pairing the main male protagonist with the main female
protagonist with disregard to the (sometimes subtle) clues left by the author
that point elsewhere. In many children's fantasies and fairy tales the
prince searches for his princess and there is really no question who the
princess will turn out to be. I was a kid when Star Wars came out. We all
thought Luke and Leia were the perfect couple. Really there was nothing to
base it on except HGTG. This leads me into FITD, which from reading your
theories (correct me if I'm wrong) it came about by asking
youngsters/adolescents *who* they thought Hermione liked. Again I'll state
that it's just my opinion, but I feel that they are not able to read JKR's
subtle clues and are automatically paring H with H.
--Now for my finale <g>. B mentioned the POV of the books -3rd person,
limited omniscient. In our case everything we know about all the other
characters is colored by Harry. He's not sitting around psychoanalyzing
everything his friends say. We have to interpret his reactions -- and we all
know how many different interpretations we can come up with. B also pointed
out that if he did have feelings for Hermione we would know. Now I don't
think Harry's all that concerned about his best friends' love life together.
He doesn't give it much thought. The most is after the Yule Brawl <g> when
he thinks "Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had." Boom,
he's back to thinking of other more important things like Cho and Quidditch.
If we had Lavender's or Parvati's view we would have more details. What I'm
trying to say is that Harry stinks at giving us the dirt but if you look
closely enough, you can tell where JKR is leading us.
Of course all this is all my opinion but I really tried not to be shippy
about it. <vbg>

> > Also, yesterday in chat I asked the crowd what an extrapolated,
> paired-off future Ron and Hermione would talk about if they weren't
> arguing. I got some silly responses that you'd have to check the
> chat transcripts for, but the top three answers were: 1) Humdrum
> everyday things... what do all couples talk about? 2) His work--
> her work. 3) Talk? They'd be too busy shagging. ;o) (Of course,
> all the H/H and no-shippers in the room ran away
> screaming at that point.)
>
To quote George from Seinfeld ...*Nothing*. ;) Although, LOL, 3 is good
too. <bg>
Ebony:
> As I'm on leave until next Monday, that means you
> guys have one week to get me to jump ship. Who knows? Perhaps I'll
> be traveling on the Good Ship R/H by March... don't look at me like
> that! Stranger things have happened!
>
You're always welcome to stop by! We love visitors. :)
And get cracking on the next part to TIP!
-Mo
(AKA Moey)
From: bbennett@j...
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 8:16 pm
Subject: SHIP: RE: Questions for R/Hers...
> bbennett@j... wrote:
> > Suggesting HGTG as a reason for the defense of H/H is just
a theory, but it can be reasonably analyzed and debated.
Penny wrote:
> Not sure if I understood the above correctly, but H/H types
*never* use HGTG as a *defense* to H/H. What you see is R/H
shippers arguing that H/H can't happen because HGTG is too
cliche. At least, that's my take on it.
Penny, I didn't make myself clear. What I tried to express is that
while I think HGTG as defense for Ron and Hermione has no
logic behind it, the concept of HGTG as support of a character
pairing might at least be a debatable theory, from a literary
standpoint, at least. I didn't mean to suggest that H/H'er routinely
use HGTG to support or defend their views! Does this make any
more sense? I've had a migraine for two days now and I may just
be babbling at this point.
Penny wrote:
> That's what I think too, Rina. But, you don't see the H/H types
arguing either side. We argue that Hermione's feelings are just
as important as Ron or Harry's feelings. Where we disagree
with the R/H types is that we interpret Hermione as having
feelings for Harry (hence, HGTG and Sidekick gets the Girl as a
consolation prize becomes doubly offensive to most of us). But,
the H/H types are equally disturbed by the R/H position that Ron
deserves the girl because he needs something that Harry
doesn't have.
Well, I'm an R/H type, I also think Hermione's feelings are
important, and I doubt I'm the only one. :*) Again, as I said in my
first post, I certainly don't think Ron "deserves" Hermione
because he needs something Harry doesn't have, and Rina
posted she didn't think that way, either. Not every R/H person
thinks this way.
Penny wrote:
> FITD: Ron likes Hermione; Hermione likes Harry; and Harry
likes either no one or someone outside the Trio.
Thank you! Now it makes sense.
Penny wrote:
> If R/H occurs in canon, I don't see it lasting. But then, I see
> absolutely no reason why James Carville & Mary Matalin have
any kind of marriage at all -- I'm completely unable to fathom
*how* they could put aside such deep disagreements & nurture
their marriage when they're "off-stage." But, to each his own ...>
They are an interesting couple, aren't they? As I mentioned in my
first post, I've got a pair of friends who have a wonderful R/H type
of relationship. As you said, to each his own.
Best Regards,
B.
From: zsenya@s...
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 9:15 pm
Subject: Re: SHIP: Questions for R/Hers...


Ebony,
I'm not sure if I am going to make any sense here. I almost
considered not answering this thread, as I'm pretty sure that
anything I say will be taken out of context. But I'll try to explain
myself clearly.
Ebony wrote:
>One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to debunk
HGTG is
>that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves something that he
doesn't
>have... the girl."
Well, I am, as you know, one of the biggest believers in the R/H way,
and that has never been one of my arguments for R/H or
for "debunking" the "HGTG" theory. As a matter of fact, I don't
choose to base my beliefs that JKR will make a Ron/Hermione
relationship a sideline story on any such theory. I also don't think
that Harry has everything. It's the fact that Harry is so normal
that makes him such a likable character.
I don't see Ron/Hermione as having anything to do with Harry at all,
to be perfectly honest. At the moment, I think that the main reason
that Ron likes Hermione is that he's a 14-year old boy and she
happens to be the one person who makes his heart thump. If Ron
really was coveting something of Harry's, he'd be drooling all over
Cho Chang, (even though she's not "Harry's" - I'm having a hard time
with all of this possessiveness), Ron is aware of Harry's crush.
The main point that you seem to be missing is that most R/H shippers
tend to believe that there's evidence out there that Hermione likes
Ron back. I won't rehash all of the same arguments again (for
example, what I like to term the "great semi-colon debate"). We
don't see this as being about any sort of Ron/Harry competition. If
I saw evidence in the books that Hermione had any feelings other than
friendship for Harry, I'd probably be climbing aboard the good ship
H/H, but I just don't interpret the books that way. If anything, I
see a Ron/Hermione pairing as a benefit for Harry - I think he
depends on them almost as one would family, and their "union" so to
speak would solidify that family unit.
Zsenya

From: morine10@a...
Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 11:59 pm
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: RE: Questions for R/Hers...
Hi again!
I wrote
> --HGTG is IMO simply pairing the main male protagonist with the main
> > female protagonist with disregard to the (sometimes subtle) clues left
> > by the author that point elsewhere.
>
Penny:
> Well, the H/H types do not use HGTG as an argument. We *hate* HGTG --
> it's demeaning to Hermione first of all. It's the *R/H* types who have
> used HGTG. They use it to say that H/H *can't* end up together because
> it *would* be HGTG. But, there are lots of scenarios under which H/H
> get together at some point that do not fall into HGTG (IMO).
>
BBennett
> Penny, I didn't make myself clear. What I tried to express is that
> while I think HGTG as defense for Ron and Hermione has no
> logic behind it, the concept of HGTG as support of a character
> pairing might at least be a debatable theory, from a literary
> standpoint, at least. I didn't mean to suggest that H/H'er routinely
> use HGTG to support or defend their views!
>
>
We are *never* going to see eye to eye. I could explain HGTG till I'm quite
blue in the face but I'll try one more time. It was never meant to say that
anyone (male or female) should be *getting* anyone. And personally, girl
doesn't offend me, but that's just me so sorry to all those that are
offended. Let's just drop HGTG and I will ask this:
As an H/H type you claim that R/H is obvious and why would JKR go for the
obvious? As an R/H type, I ask wouldn't pairing the main male protagonist
with the main female protagonist be obvious from a literary standpoint? Why
would JKR tread down this obvious path?
Penny:
> I do hope that you are speaking solely about the "kid" readers and not
> levelling a huge insult at the reasonably large number of adults with
> advanced degrees who fall into the H/H camp. <g> It is the opinion of
> many H/H'ers that the R/H types are the ones who are missing the clues
> left by JKR and automatically pairing Hermione off with Ron because the
> surface text so clearly indicates that *he* likes *her*. We think
> they're missing the ship! <g>
>
Er, yeah the kids, that's what I meant! <vbg> Actually, the last *several*
times I've posted on this I've made a point to clarify that I was speaking of
the younger readers. However, the R/H types of various ages with varying
levels of education will continue to argue that there is no H/H subtext. <vbg>

Penny
> She's hit us over the head with the fact that Ron likes Hermione. But,
> wouldn't it be entirely too obvious (and too unlike JKR) to tread down
> that path without throwing in a plot twist or two (or three ....)? <g>
>
Ron wears his heart on his sleeve. Hermione is a bit more reserved. I don't
think R/H would be too obvious or too unlike JKR at all. I really don't
think that she has to add a *twist* to everything or will feel the need to.
Some things can be cut and dry and still be interesting and fun to read
about. :)

-Mo
(AKA Moey)
Who thought she was a Type B, but as it turns out she's a Type R/H
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:08 pm
Subject: SHIP: Ship-a-dee-doo-da

ADVERTISEMENT


OK, first of all, NO FAIR starting a shipping thread while my Internet
connection is down! (I had no access for 3 days! *sob* It was horrible!)
However, I am glad to see that the crew of the Good Ship R/H seems to be out
in force! Some really good points have been made on all sides. Not sure
exactly what I can add, but hey, that never stopped me from jumping in
before,right? ;)

Amy Z wrote:
>I don't think succeeding in romance with Hermione, whether short- or
>long-term, would exactly alleviate Ron's disquietude (nice
>phrase)--although it would make his second-class status less pressing
>an issue. That would be not because he now has something Harry
>doesn't, but because he's happy. Success in love will make all sorts
>of unhappinesses seem unimportant.
I think this is a great point. And, for the record, I don't think Ron's
feelings for Hermione have anything to do with Harry. Granted, they could
become related later on if FITD comes into play, but I think, right now, the
thing is, Ron likes Hermione. He likes he because he likes her, not because
Harry doesn't, or because he wants something Harry doesn't have, or any of
those things. And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think that Hermione
is probably the ONE person who doesn't think Ron is somehow inferior to Harry.
For that reason, I think a relationship with Hermione would help Ron realize
his own worth and help him see he isn't second-best.
Amy Z again:
>So I'm thinking that for Ron, what would be worse than Harry falling
>in love with Hermione, asking her out, and succeeding, would be Harry
>being indifferent to Hermione, but her asking him out and succeeding.
>That's what's so misery-inducing about HGTG for me. And if Harry and
>Hermione did get together, this is how it would likely be, IMO,
>because IMO Harry has zero romantic interest in Hermione right now.
Wholehearted;y agree with that last bit. Aside from being ardently R/H (hey,
did you know that?<g>) I dearly hope that Hermione doesn't develop feelings
for Harry for that reason: he wouldn't like her back, IMO, and she would just
end up being hurt.
I agree with the bit about it being worse for Ron in this scenario, but I
think a major part of the reason that it would be worse for him is that he
would have to stand by and watch Hermione get hurt. I could see that being
more painful for him than the jealousy thing, though that would certainly come
into play, too. With all the Ron-might-go-bad scenarios we have discussed, I
don't think this one ever came up: Ron turns all evil to get revenge on Harry
for hurting Hermione. He's a passionate guy; it's possible, I guess.

Ebony wrote:
<<One of the top arguments that R/Hers have used in the past to debunk HGTG
>is that "Harry has everything else, so Ron deserves something that he
>doesn't have... the girl."
And Rina replied:
>Okay. This has never been my argument, so I'm probably not going to do the
>R/Hers any good here. <snip> I've been sitting here reading your message
>repeatedly, and damned if I can't even defend the above rationale that
>apparently some R/Hers have taken, because it's rather insulting. Who
>started that?!
Actually, as far as I know, this has never been any R/H-ers argument, at least
on this list. "HGTG" came up as an offhand way to talk about what many
R/H-ers feel is the cliched nature of H/H (i.e. "If you have a problem with
OBHWF as being to cliched, what about HGTG?"). I for one think that if Ron
does "deserve" Hermione, it's because he cares about her and would treat her
right (you know, once he finally gets a clue <g>). I don't see why R/H has to
have anything to do with Harry at all...other than the fact that he's their
friend and would still need to be included.
Rina again:
>The relationship between Ron and Hermione should be just that - BETWEEN RON
>AND HERMIONE.
Bingo. Exactly what I am trying to say.
B. said:
>These are not exchangeable concepts (i.e.
>saying you think HGTG is the reason people think Harry and Hermione
>will pair up doesn't automatically mean you think HGTG is the
>reason Ron and Hermione should pair up).
This says it more coherently than I ever could. :)

Penny wrote:
>I think HGTG was originally put forth as a reason why R/H types dislike
>the notion of H/H. They argued that it wouldn't be "right" for the hero
>to get the girl (too cliche). <snip> But, the H/H types are
>equally disturbed by the R/H position that Ron deserves the girl because
>he needs something that Harry doesn't have.
Again, I think this is a misinterpretation. See above. And I believe that
last sentence is putting words into the mouths of R/H-ers; as I mentioned
before, that is hardly the position I have seen being expressed.
Penny wrote:
>We argue that Hermione's feelings are just as important as
>Ron or Harry's feelings. Where we disagree with the R/H types is that
>we interpret Hermione as having feelings for Harry (hence, HGTG and
>Sidekick gets the Girl as a consolation prize becomes doubly offensive
>to most of us).
And R/H-ers don't discount Hermione's feelings either, I might point out. I
think what our H/H compatriots fail to recognize is that our position is NOT
based on "Harry has everything, give Ron the girl", but rather on the evidence
we see of MUTUAL attraction between Ron and Hermione. Obviously, we differ on
this point, but that's no reason to accuse us of pushing Hermione off on
someone she doesn't want! <g>
First mate Mo wrote:
>What I'm trying to say is that Harry stinks at giving us the dirt but if you
>look closely enough, you can tell where JKR is leading us.
LOL! Can you imagine if we were seeing things from Lavender or Parvati's POV?
We'd get a lot more gossip (and I bet we would know whether the robes were
open at the front or not too!)
Amy Z wrote:
>This R/H type (32 years old with too many degrees) admits to seeing a
>very, very subtle H/H subtext. Very subtle. Almost nonexistent.
Well, this R/H type can also admit to seeing why others might interpret some
things as H/H (and, as I have admitted before, I did flirt with the other side
before finding the True R/H Way <g>). But I see the things that others seems
to see as "subtext" as the strengthening of the H/H friendship. To me, it
actually takes away from JKR's wonderfully subtle description of friendship to
ascribe a romantic subtext to these things (the Kiss comes to mind, but there
are many other examples as well.) That's the main reason H/H never rang true
to me--it feels forced and it takes something away from Harry and Hermione's
friendship. To me, anyway.
Zsenya:
>I don't see Ron/Hermione as having anything to do with Harry at all,
>to be perfectly honest. At the moment, I think that the main reason
>that Ron likes Hermione is that he's a 14-year old boy and she
>happens to be the one person who makes his heart thump.
Exactly. And I believe it was you, Zsenya, who pointed out that Ron was
attracted to Hermione before her teeth were fixed, before she made herself
pretty for the ball. He's attracted to her for who she is, even if he hasn't
realized it yet.
Mo
>Ron wears his heart on his sleeve. Hermione is a bit more reserved. I
>don't think R/H would be too obvious or too unlike JKR at all. I really
>don't think that she has to add a *twist* to everything or will feel the
>need to. Some things can be cut and dry and still be interesting and fun to
>read about. :)
What really struck me upon reading this was: yes, JKR does throw in plot
twists and surprises. But, she doesn't mess with the relationships and the
characterizations she has been building up. If Harry were to suddenly fall
madly in love with Hermione, it would be completely out of character and not
true to the portrait she has been building of him. Yes, events can happen
which can be a catalyst to a relationship between 2 characters (the Goblet of
Fire or the Yule Ball for instance), but I don't see the characters suddenly
turning into something else. We all bought that Ron would react the way he
did to the Goblet of Fire because we knew about his insecurities. We bought
his jealousy at the Yule Ball because we knew he liked Hermione. I for one
bought Hermione's reaction because I believe she liked Ron back and was
irritated with him for his "you *are* a girl" thing. (Obviously, other people
have come up with other explanations for that, but there you are. Either way,
it fits the character.)
Then again, we apparently disagree in our interpretations of the characters,
so that may affect how we see this as well. I still feel that H/H would be
completely jarring and out of character.
Enough rambling for now...

Captain Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
glad to be back on board

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:52 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Who thinks that HP and SW are too alike as it is

Dee wrote:
>The two droids. R2D2=Hedwig. It's a stretch, I know, but both carried
>messages? I also think Hedwig has the same feisty personality.
>C3PO throws me for a loop. No close who he'd resemble.
Nearly Headless Nick?
Kathy,
who now feels absolutely no guilt over the "casting HP with Muppets" thread
she started a few months back


From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:11 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Little Women

Trina wrote:
>and Beth, whom I actually liked (other than obvious Jo) dies! *This*
>is a classic? I will admit to reading Little Men out of sheer
>curiosity, but haven't touched any other LMA since!
I never actually finished reading it because I was so distraught once I
figured out that Beth was dead (LMA used so many eupherisms it took me 2
chapters--hey, I was 10, give me a break). The only HP connection I can make
to this is that this is what will probably happen if Ron dies--I won't be able
to continue reading. *shudders at the thought*
From: bbennett@j...
Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 12:58 pm
Subject: Re: SHIP: Question for shippers

> Star wrote:
>
> > Does everyone, H/H shippers, R/H shippers, no-shippers, H/G
shippers, D/H shippers etc. etc. all think that it's completely
ovious that Ron likes Hermione?
Penny wrote:
> I do think it's pretty obvious he likes her, but being the devout
H/H shipper that I am, I'm sure open to hearing your counter-
arguments, Star. Please let us in on it before you end up
computerless! :--)
I also think it's obvious Ron likes Hermione and I doubt my mind will
change on that. But what keeps me coming back to HP4GUs
is the chance to read the various opinions (and clap my hands in
agreement with some, think "Well, that *is* a good point" on others,
and to shake my head - "Totally misses the point!" on still
others.... :*). It's this stuff that makes this list fun. I second
Penny in saying we're open to counter-arguments, Star - have at it!
Regards,
B

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:21 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blond Hair

--- In HPforGrownups@y..., A B <old_wych@y...> wrote:
>
> --- jennifer.k@l... wrote:
> >
> > Blond people in the books:
> > <snip list>
> >
> > They are all mean (Petunia, Dudley, Draco), stupid
> > (Gyllenroy, Fleur)
> > or misguided (Crouch Jr).
> >
> You left out Rita Skeeter. She's a blonde, too, and
> mean. Goes with your theory.
>and Narcissa Malfoy.
>...but this could be the downfall of the theory, as we don't know
>anything about her except that she has a disdainful _expression.
>
>and Gabrielle,
><...Fleur's little sister, about whom we know nothing except that she's
>the thing Fleur would miss most.
>Pippin
...and Hannah Abbott, who seems to be nice enough, even if we don't know much
about her.
And I must object to the description of Fleur as "stupid". I hardly think
that she would be a Triwizard Champion if she were stupid. She may be a bit
haughty, but it's clear that she loves her sister and she was nice enough by
the end.
Also, for some reason, the picture in my head of Justin Finch-Fletchley is
blond. I haven't been able to find anything in the canon to corroborate this,
so I'm not sure how it got there, but there you go.
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:28 pm
Subject: A Quote to share


I was driving along and saw this quote on the sign outside a chuirch, and it
made me think of Ron. (Actually, come to think of it, it fits Hermione too, I
think.)
"Temper gets us in trouble. Pride keeps us there."
Actually, I guess it fits Harry too, especially during the GoF argument.
Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who can never stop relating everything to HP, apparently

From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 10:52 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Shippers


>I was wondering who are on what ships for this group? And do you see
>the relationships you are for are long or short term? <snip>
>So...........where are the shippers?
>~Kim B.

Hmmm. I saw this post and the term "can of worms" immediately sprang to
mind...who's up for another round of shipper debates? ;)
Captain Kathy of the Good Ship R/H,
which is made of stronger stuff than some seem to think
and is not sinking anytime soon!
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:03 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] Viktor Krum


>I also agree that he does not like his fame or being singled out.
>Penny
Penny! We agreed on something else! Add it to the list (I think we're up to
5 or 6 now! Let's hear it for Inter-Ship Cooperation! :)
Captain Kathy
who is feeling very silly tonight

 

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