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Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: SHIPs
I am known for my fierce support of Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny on
the SHIP front, so I won't even go there right now, but I'd like to
express my agreement at some of the others listed below.
> Some people say what's the big deal, they just went to the Yule Ball
> together. I say, NO, they started dating during PoA, they were going
> steady until the Yule Ball, where they upgraded to 'engaged to be
I am in total agreement about this - I choose to use Cho's sobs at the
end of GoF as evidence that the relationship was fairly deep.
> But I believe it possible that Cho/Harry *could* spring from their
> shared mourning. That would depend on Harry opening up enough to be
> willing to share his mourning..
Yeah, I could see them dating, or, at least become fairly good
friends. I have this feeling that Harry's going to feel some guilt
over what happened to Cedric and this will pretty much cancel out any
feelings he has towards Cho.
> I believe they married for love and Harry was, if not planned, at
> least wanted. Someone pointed out the other day that we don't know
> that Harry wasn't an unwelcome surprise, and I have suggested
> discussing the possibility that James and Lily were each engaged to
> someone they had chosen (maybe Severus for Lily) but broke those
> engagements to marry because the prophecy said that only their child
> could destroy the Dark Lord.
Well, in PoA, Lily is described as shining with happiness in her
wedding picture. Why would she be if she wasn't in love?
> She isn't even MENTIONED in GoF, which does not give the impression
> that the relationship survived leaving school. However, Penelope is
> the name of Odysseus's wife who waited twenty years for him to
> return, therefore I can't be sure that this relationship is over.
I know, I've been thinking a lot about this one because of a fic that
I'm writing. You'd think that she'd be chatting with Percy at the
Yule Ball, but she isn't even mentioned, is she? In my mind, they're
together still, but I have nothing to base it on.
> Sirius being bi and Remus being either gay or bi. It would be
> their sex lives where their hearts are. That would be sweet and it
> would mean that I wasn't losing Remus to ANOTHER GIRL, but I don't
> think men care very much whether sex and love are in the same place.
This is *exactly* what I've been thinking lately. Maybe it's all in
my head, but I just feel that those two were meant for each other.
Once again, not a whole lot to go by - Remus did embrace Sirius "like
a brother" but that was from Harry's POV. In terms of fan fiction,
although I love Thing1's stories about Remus, they're the only fics
where Remus is with a woman that I like. It's so strange really -
I'm not gay or bi, I don't know many people who are, but I just *feel*
it with R/S. I've been wondering if JKR did that or if it's the
fanfic messing with my head. I am dying to know the history that JKR
has going on in her head with those two. Didn't she mention somewhere
that she already has it all planned out for her own benefit?
Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 7:09 am
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Viktor Krum
In a message dated 2/28/01 11:26:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> I don't think his behavior is particularly creepy, and I think he
> probably is a good guy. I think this is particularly likely since
> Hermione seems to be such a good judge of character. I don't think it's
> weird for him to have been interested in someone so much younger, and
> yes, he does seem to have good taste in women!
I agree 110%. Then again Ron has excellent taste as well! I wonder if
anyone out there who agrees with the above statement is also in the "Ron
go bad" camp? You know, since we've established Hermione as such a good
judge of character.
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 4:39 pm
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ron likes Hermione?
OK, I am sure that no one will be surprised that I don't agree with the idea
that Ron doesn't like Hermione!
Star wrote all the stuff after the >s:
>Ron thought of Hermione as a last resort, if he liked her why didn't he
>her before hand, he could have 'pretended' he wanted to go as friends
>no, he didn't even think of her till it was too late.
JKR herself has said that Ron doesn't know what's going on yet. I think it's
pretty clear he just hasn't admitted his feelings, even to himself, yet.
>Also, Ron didn't seem mad that she was going with some one else before
>dance at all, if it would have been just another student I don't think
>would have gotten mad.
I definitely have to disagree here. He asked her repreatedly who she was
going with. That wasn't casual curiosity.
>I think Ron got mad b/c he was jealous not of not going with Hermione
>b/c Hermione got to go with his 'hero'.
I think you have a point; the fact that it was Krum was probably a part of
But I disagree that he wouldn't have been jealous if it had been anyone else.
Remember how extra-disgusted Ron was at Hermione's crush on Lockhart? The
fact that it's Krum she goes with makes it sting more. But it would have
gotten to him either way. There's no doubt in my mind about that.
I think this is an interesting argument but, like I said, I don't buy it.
nothing else, I don't see how you could square this with Hermione's statement
and Harry's thoughts at the end of the Yule Ball, about how Hermione had
gotten the point much better than Ron had. This exchange makes it very clear
to me, at least, that Ron wanted to go to the Ball with Hermione.
AKA Elanor Gamgee
eagerly preparing for another round of shipper fun
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 10:54 pm
Subject: Re: SHIP: Question for shippers
--- In HPforGrownups@y..., Star <star_ling@w...> wrote:
> People always talk about the dance when supporting ROn
likes Hermione saying Ron was mad b/c he liked Hermione and
she didn't break off her date to go with him, I don't see this. Ron
thought of Hermione as a last resort, if he liked her why didn't he
ask her before hand, he could have 'pretended' he wanted to go
as friends but no, he didn't even think of her till it was too late. >
This is the first time I've heard the theory that Ron was angry
because Hermione wouldn't break her date to go with him - I
don't agree with this either, Star. I do disagree when you say he
thought of her as a last resort, however - she may very well have
been the first thing on his mind. Ron is a 14 year old boy who
has a crush on a girl - a scary situation, made more so by the
fact said girl has been a good friend for 3 years. If you go back
through GoF, you'll see that Ron didn't initially ask Hermione, but
he didn't ask anyone else either (brain-dead veela-induced
moment with Fleur aside), even though he mentioned to Harry
the need to find a date. Why not look? Well, he appeared quite
shocked to find out Hermione had a date; I think in his
assumed Hermione wouldn't have a date, so he could fail to find
one and then they could conveniently both go stag and hang out
the ball (as friends, of course). Why not just ask? I remember
having crushes on friends in middle school, and going out of the
way to seem normal around the person (even to the point of
being distant or acting oblivous). I agree with you that it would
have been easier if he'd just asked her to go as a friend, but
when there's a 2nd friend involved who could potentially tease
you (Harry), as well as siblings who wouldn't mind a little
younger brother torture (Fred and George)... that's an emotional
risk I don't think Ron was ready to take (not this makes him a big
coward -he's young, and not the first to behave this way). Ron
doesn't find a date (which Harry had to do for him) until after he
finds out Hermione has one, and then it's someone he doesn't
give two flips about going with - because the girl he really wanted
to go with was taken.
<Also, Ron didn't seem mad that she was going with some one
else before the dance at all, if it would have been just another
student I don't think ROn would have gotten mad. I think Ron got
mad b/c he was jealous not of not going with Hermione but b/c
Hermione got to go with his 'hero'. Ron couldn't believe that
Hermion went with Krum and she wouldn't even tell him, this is
the guy he wanted an autograph from and here his friend his
going to the dance with Krum and didn't even tell him. I see
Ron's anger and jealousy coming not from like for Hermione but
his like (hero type peoples) of Krum. >
Star, I think you're right in regard to Ron being jealous of whom
Hermione went to the ball with, but I see it as icing on the cake
rather than the main reason for his anger. I think Kathy pointed
out that Ron continued to pester Hermione into telling him who
she was going with. Being angry at Hermione for going with
Krum was easier than being angry at himself for not asking her,
and more rational (to his mind, anyway) than being angry with
her for looking pretty and having a good time at a ball.
> This is just part of an argument at one sense that is used for
supporting ROn likes Hermione. I have a lot of arguments
against this I suppose b/c I've been in this type of thing with a guy
friend of mind. He acts towards me just like ROn acts towards
Hermione and I know he doesn't have a crush one me for a fact
so I suppose that tends to reflect my views. >
Hmmm, I wouldn't be so sure about that, Star (just teasing ;*).
Seriously, there are all kinds of relationships and situations (you
heard it here first!), and this is the way I interprete Ron's feelings.
Now, I'm going to go pout because the storm swerved and I'm
not going to be snowed in tomorrow morning.
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 2:52 pm
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
Continue to read R/H shippers. Believe it or not, I'm largely on your
> side on this one. <g>
Yikes! 'Tis the calm before the storm. Cap'n Kathy - batten down the
> this is
more to do with his
> perception that she was just "good old Hermione" who wasn't
> "girl" in his mind until it was becoming clear that he was
going to have
> trouble getting a date at the 11th hour.
I agree, Ron is not very self aware. He just hasn't got a clue yet. I know
he's going to come around though. :)
> I agree with Kathy on that one! I'm *not*, however, expressing any
> agreement with the position that JKR has said that it *will* be R/H or
> any of that nonsense. Her statement was "Yes, there's something
> on between them, Ron just doesn't know it yet." I still say that
> arguable that the "something going on" is one-sided. I think
> statement was sufficiently ambiguous. But, it's clear that Ron just
> hasn't admitted his own feelings. We're in agreement on that much
First off - R/H nonsense? Come now, we have extremely valid points and
*very* strong textual evidence. It's hardly nonsense. <g> As for JKR's
statement, IMO the only thing you could call ambiguous is her use of the word
"something." But is there really any question as to what she means?
that her use of the word "between" means just that - between Ron
Hermione. It involves *both* parties. I interpret her statement to mean
that Hermione knows but Ron is a clueless boy. :)
One point I'll make at this stage is that it is interesting that Ron does
> specifically ask her to ball. He at first says, "Well, you can come
> with one of us." If she had said fine, it would be logical that
> would have gone with Harry because of his heightened need for a
> partner. Even Ron would have seen that. Later in the conversation, he
> says, "Okay, okay, *we* know you're a girl. ... That do? Will you
> now?" He's *still* not out & out asking her to be *his* date.
> I like Bbennet's observation that he may have, in the back of his mind,
> assumed that they would both go stag and "hang out" at the
I like B's observation as well. :) I can still remember when I was that age
and for the most part groups of girls would meet up a the movies or the mall
with groups of boys. No one specifically asked anyone out. More of a
"Hey, you going to the mall tonight?" 'Yeah, I guess." "Cool,
I guess I'll
see you guys there." The pairing off would take place when you found
seat in the theater or at the food court. You just hoped that the *right*
person sat next to you! ;)
> I'm still not convinced that Ron said anything personal to Hermione
> common room. I think he continued to fling the "consorting with
> enemy" stance at her just as he had at the Ball (of course, this
> masking his real feelings but I think he doesn't recognize his feelings
> for what they are). I've said many times before that we don't know what
> Ron said to her before Harry enters the room & overhears the last
> their row. But, consider this (a point I don't think I've made):
> ["Well," he spluttered, looking thunderstruck. "well ---
> proves ---- completely missed the point."]
> Okay R/H types: if Ron *did* say something personal ("why didn't
> to the Ball with me rather than Krum?"), why in the world would
> she'd missed the point? Why would he look thunderstruck?
I agree with you, I don't think that he said anything personal to her. I
think that Ron continued his "fraternizing with the enemy" stance.
he was *thinking* something more personal, he would never have said it. The
"missing the point" and "thunderstruck" statements would
not make much sense
> Harry's observation about Hermione getting the point more than Ron had
> is, I think, just making it more clear that Harry himself has figured
> out that Ron likes Hermione. But, her feelings are still a mystery to
> us all.
Now I have to half disagree with this. Yes, Harry is acknowledging that Ron
likes Hermione, but I feel that he is also saying that Hermione likes Ron.
Why? Well let's look at Hermione's statement from the row:
"Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as
First, Hermione says this to Ron and NOT to Harry. Why would she bother
(IMO) *telling* Ron to ask her to be his date next time if she liked Harry
anyone else for that matter? There are plenty of things she could have said
such as "shut up" or "I can date whoever I want to." Really,
I think that
the above statement may as well say, "The minute they announce the next
you had better be over here begging me to go with you!" <VBG> She
tell Harry to ask her out next time.
I guess I really don't think that Hermione's feelings are some big mystery.
She may not be as transparent as Ron and the hints may be a bit more subtle
but I feel that they are there. Especially after that statement during the
infamous Yule fight. :)
BTW, if anyone is interested in seeing some *R/H-Type* interpretations on
Yule Ball fight I suggest a trip to Sugar Quill Island (www.sugarquill.com)
Arabella and Elanor Gamgee (AKA Cap'n Kathy) each have stories that contain
the scene as well as my own "Yule Brawl" (I go by Moey over there
Peace, Love, Harry Potter #~8^)
First Mate of the Good Ship R/H
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 3:55 pm
Subject: Re: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
<I am a H/H person. The true H/H, which is Harry/Hedwig and none of
this Hermione nonsense. Hence I should support the Ron/Hermione lot,
as that would leave the path open for my preference. >
Simon, I've just seen the light - H/H all the way! :*)
> Hermione may say that line to Ron, but that is almost certainly
because it is Ron that is making a big deal about all of the ball
stuff. They are in the middle of an argument in which Ron is making a
big deal out of nothing and Harry has just walked in and witnesses
the end of it.>
Having been a 14 year old girl, I have to disagree with your
reasoning, Simon. At that age, I never would have said something
like that to a boy (and a close friend, at that) and have expected
him to take it as a generic, blanket sort of statement - as a 30 year
old, I'd still assume that by saying something like this I'm
letting the guy know I'm interested!
Simon also wrote:
< Hermione's point would not have been as well made if the comment
were aimed at Harry or both. It is Ron that is making a deal out of
this 'consorting with the enemy' and so Hermione is pointing out that
in future if he does not want this to happen then he will have to act
Yes, by saying he should ask her to be his date. If she
wasn't actually suggesting to Ron specifically that he should
have asked, then why say it at all - why not just tell him to bugger
Again, this is an interesting thread!
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 4:27 pm
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
Dr. Branford, I cannot believe that you do not have *any* medi-wizard
emergencies! I can't imagine with all your duties you have time to spend on
this silly shipper stuff. :)
> Simon wrote:
> this Hermione nonsense. Hence I should support the Ron/Hermione lot,
> as that would leave the path open for my preference. >
> Simon, I've just seen the light - H/H all the way! :*)
> > Hermione may say that line to Ron, but that is almost certainly
> because it is Ron that is making a big deal about all of the ball
> stuff. They are in the middle of an argument in which Ron is making a
> big deal out of nothing and Harry has just walked in and witnesses
> the end of it.>
> Having been a 14 year old girl, I have to disagree with your
> reasoning, Simon. At that age, I never would have said something
> like that to a boy (and a close friend, at that) and have expected
> him to take it as a generic, blanket sort of statement - as a 30 year
> old, I'd still assume that by saying something like this I'm
> letting the guy know I'm interested!
I have to agree with B, I would never (as a 14 year old or now as a 30 year
old) say that as a generic statement. Maybe Ron isn't the only one that
doesn't get it. :) Is it me or does this seem like a Venus/Mars thing? We
woman think we are being *so* incredibly obvious and the men think, *what*
the heck is she talking about?
Simon also wrote:
> < Hermione's point would not have been as well made if the comment
> were aimed at Harry or both. It is Ron that is making a deal out of
> this 'consorting with the enemy' and so Hermione is pointing out that
> in future if he does not want this to happen then he will have to act
> Yes, by saying he should ask her to be his date. If she
> wasn't actually suggesting to Ron specifically that he should
> have asked, then why say it at all - why not just tell him to bugger
Thanks B. I think that was my original point. *Why* would she *tell* him to
ask her out if she didn't want to. Again, this is from the female POV. I
know that I would *never* say something like that to someone that I didn't
want to ask me out.
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 8:34 pm
Subject: Re: SHIP: Ron & the Yule Ball
> Bbennett said:
> > Having been a 14 year old girl, I have to disagree with your
reasoning, Simon. At that age, I never would have said
something like that to a boy (and a close friend, at that) and have
expected him to take it as a generic, blanket sort of statement -
as a 30 year old, I'd still assume that by saying something like
this I'm letting the guy know I'm interested!>>
> Well, I've been a 14 yr old girl myself, and I agree with Simon.
They were having a fight. The words were spoken in anger, and
most of us have agreed that it seems most likely that the words
that prompted her remark were not personal. So, why should
her retort be taken as personal if his initial triggering remark
I do agree that the words that prompted her remark weren't
personal, but I think she was aware that the feelings behind
them were. Ron spent the days leading up to the ball repeatedly
questioning her on whom she was going with; he also blew the
issue of her appearing at the ball with Viktor ridiculously out of
proportion, then spent the better part of the evening sulking.
Compare this with Harry, who didn't pester her about her date
and wasn't horrible to her at the ball. I think it's quite possible
that by the end of the evening she was aware Viktor wasn't the
real issue, and that her final words were not just about him
running the Viktor thing into the ground, but in being too chicken
to say what the problem really was. That's the way I interpreted it.
Oh, and my 2 cents on the Rita Skeeter article thing - I simply
took it that Molly was outraged on Harry's behalf and didn't think
(as Ebony pointed out, she should have been more than aware
of Rita's less than honest writing). That's all.
> Penny (who should be doing a million other things right now ...)
And I bet half of those aren't as much fun as this :*)
Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 8:49 pm
Subject: Announcement: W.A.I.L.
I hope this is okay - I just wanted to invite anyone who's interested
to pay a visit to a new section on our sugarquill website. W.A.I.L
(the Weasley Adoration and Idolatry League) is now up and running at
http://www.sugarquill.com/wail.html. There's a section devoted to
each member of the Weasley family, including quotes, fan fiction, and
fan art. Soon to come will be links to other fan sites.
It's not completely done - our quotes only go up to CoS and I haven't
finished all the fan fic links yet (it's not so easy to find fan
fiction focusing on Arthur or Charlie Weasley, for example...). We
need help! Any suggestions for fan fic to link to, fan art or links,
etc. can be posted at our W.A.I.L. discussion board.
Hope to see you there!
(who would really love to get into the whole R/H Yule Ball debate,
but feels that her shipmates are keeping afloat quite nicely...)
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 1:17 am
Subject: SHIP: Ron, Hermione, the Yule Ball, and Mrs. Weasley
Ahoy there! Ah, the choppy waters in these parts tell me another shipping
debate lies in our path! The Captain of the Good Ship R/H steps forward to
take her watch, allowing the beleaguered First Mate, who has held the wheel
for several hours straight, to take some much-deserved rest.
>Continue to read R/H shippers. Believe it or not, I'm largely on your
>side on this one. <g>
Isn't that one of the seven signs of the Apocalypse? <g>
(OK, I just read through Penny's message again and realized that she agreed
with me three times in a row! I *know* that's one of the signs!...OK,OK, I'm
getting back on topic, I promise...)
>He was astonished that she
>was going with someone else, but I think this is more to do with his
>perception that she was just "good old Hermione" who wasn't
>"girl" in his mind until it was becoming clear that he was going
trouble getting a date at the 11th hour.
And, I would point out, the fact that he realizes she's a girl doesn't mean
he's anywhere near admitting that he has feelings for her.
>What would Ron have thought if Hermione had gone with Harry?
An interesting question (I snipped your whole scenario here, but I agree it's
plausible.) However, to me, one of the reasons H/H doesn't ring true is
precisely because Ron *doesn't* seem terribly bothered by the insinuations
that Hermione is Harry's girlfriend. If there were subtext, I would think
would at least show some resentment. (And don't tell me he wouldn't pick up
on it--he may be a dolt who doesn't know his own feelings yet, but he knows
enough to get jealous.)
>One point I'll make at this stage is that it is interesting that Ron
>does *not* specifically ask her to ball. He at first says, "Well,
>can come with one of us."
This didn't surprise me a bit. He hasn't admitted to himself how he feels,
it doesn;t surprise me that he wouldn't put himself out there by asking her.
I'm with B.--I think he probably did (consciously or subconsciously) wait
until the last minute, assuming he'd go with Hermione one way or another.
That still means he took her for granted, of course.
>Okay R/H types: if Ron *did* say something personal ("why didn't
>go to the Ball with me rather than Krum?"), why in the world would
she'd missed the point? Why would he look thunderstruck?
*blinks and looks around at shipmates* Did any of us say we thought that was
the case? If so, I don't remember it. In fact, I absolutely agree that Ron
wouldn't have said anything personal--he's still too out of touch with his
feelings at this point. On the contrary, I think it would be *Hermione* who
would bring it up, if anything personal was said. Something along the lines
of "I know what's *really* bothering you!"
>For once the R/H shippers shouldn't be too up & arms about one of
>shipping posts --
Oh, Penny, my dear. You underestimate us. ;)
>All that said, I do agree that being in the thick of what the
>characters are experiencing has to give you a bit of a different
>viewpoint. In fact, I think that's one of the tests of good writing,
>that it can stand up to a multiplicity of views, and mean something a
>little different to each reader.
Hear, hear! It consistently amazes me, the number of different
interpretations can be placed on the same words.
First Mate Mo wrote:
>As for JKR's statement, IMO the only thing you could call ambiguous is
>her use of the word "something." But is there really any question
>>to what she means? I think that her use of the word "between"
>>just that - between Ron and Hermione. It involves *both* parties.
>>interpret her statement to mean that Hermione knows but Ron is a
>>>>>>clueless boy. :)
Exactly. This is how I interpret it as well. Penny has a point about JKR's
statements sometimes being misleading, but I still heartily doubt that is
>Yes, Harry is acknowledging that Ron likes Hermione, but I feel that
>>he is also saying that Hermione likes Ron. Why? Well let's look at
>>>Hermione's statement from the row:
This was pretty clear to me too. But then, one of the things I love about
JKR's style is that things, especially emotional things, are rarely laid out.
She shows rather than tells. So it's up to the reader to interpret what's
going on.Despite the over-the-top nature of much of what she writes about,
JKR's style is fairly understated.
>I guess I really don't think that Hermione's feelings are some big
>>>>mystery. She may not be as transparent as Ron and the hints
>a bit more subtle but I feel that they are there. Especially after
>>>>that statement during the infamous Yule fight. :)
Surprise, surprise...I agree. Hermione's not as much of an open book as Ron
is. (Remember, it's Harry's POV and he's absolutely mystified by girls in
general anyway!) But I maintain that her jealous looks cannot be explained
away as easily as some H/H-ers would like. And don't even get me started on
that semicolon thing again! :)
>BTW, if anyone is interested in seeing some *R/H-Type* interpretations
>on the Yule Ball fight I suggest a trip to Sugar Quill Island
>>>>>>>>>(www.sugarquill.com) Arabella and Elanor
Gamgee (AKA Cap'n
>>>>Kathy) each have stories that contain the scene as well as
Thanks for the plug, Mo!
> The "nonsense" that I was referring to is the argument that
>is irrefutably saying that there will be a canon romance between Ron &
Of course, it would equally be nonsense to say that said statement
irrefutably *doesn't* mean that.
>Well, she and Harry weren't having an argument though, were they? I
>agree with Simon's points. Ron is the one who made the big deal about
>her ball date and it possibly being a disloyal act. She was having a
>fight with Ron. Of course, she wouldn't direct that sort of line at
>Harry. He made a point of saying that he didn't mind that she went with
Hmmm, it doesn't seem to me she cares much *what* Harry thinks. Funny how
Ron's opinion seems to matter to her though...
And about Mrs. Weasley...
>It seems pretty clear that the reason that Mrs. Weasley was cold to
>Hermione was that she had read the Rita Skeeter article claiming that
>Hermione had broken Harry's heart.
I agree with this. I never liked the idea that Mrs. Weasley's giving Hermione
the cold shoulder had anything to do with Ron. Mrs. Weasley clearly dotes
Harry (sometimes more so than her own children). Actually, I find it a bit
troubling at times, the way she underestimates Ron and coddles Harry. I don't
think she's noticed Ron's feelings on the matter one way or another.
>Is she that horrible a judge of character? Valuing Rita Skeeter's
>word--a woman who gave her husband, Dumbledore, and Hagrid hell--
>people Molly Weasley should respect if only by association--over
>everything she knows about the type of girl Hermione is?
Well, she did swoon over Gilderoy Lockhart too...what does that tell us?
Captain Kathy of the Good Ship R/H
off to de-gnome the Lido Deck
while her alter ego, Elanor Gamgee, merrily slides down the giant water slide
(oh, I'm going to be paying for this late night when I get up in 5 hours!)
Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:51 pm
Subject: SHIP: Waving the White Flag
<Mo is launched in the R/H dinghy, white hanky dangling from the end of
Apparently as R/H First Mate, one of my duties was to recruit an official
message bearer. Since I slacked, it seems I must do this myself. So please,
hold your fire! <VBG>
> My statements are NOT meant to be taken issue of, they are
> as I have stressed my opinions only :-)
Well .... if you state an opinion on an internet *discussion* list,
you're opening yourself up to having that opinion be subjected to
questioning. That's the point. It's a discussion group so that there
can be back & forth debate. You don't just express opinions & then
"But, I don't want to hear any arguments, and I don't want to have to
defend my views." If that's your hope, then you're better off being
silent on a discussion group, because the whole point is to engage in a
conversation with one another.
While I don't think that my dear shipmate was attempting to quell the battle,
I do think she was trying to prevent mass casualties. I think she was trying
to avoid ill-will and harsh feelings. All in good fun! Eh Firoza?
> Cassandra -
>Hooray for all 30 year olds who love HP as much as we do!
> Anyway, I am also a die hard R/H shipper, and cannot for the life
of me see into a H/H thing. It just doesn't work.
> The kiss - ah, the kiss! Made no impression on me. I though
Hermione gave Harry a "I'm glad you're okay and will be worrying about
over the summer and I'm quite maternal" sort of kiss. Hermione can show
affections to Harry that Ron cannot without being called a "swotty
little Nancy boy". I wouldn't want Harry and Hermione to date anyway.
Something about that is stupid to me. 'Nuff said.
> --Jenny from Rav
*scratches head.* I am not thirty. Nor do I think there is anything
to the H/H kiss. Never have I thought there was anything to it. All I
said was that it is an action open to interpretation. My
interpretation is that it doesn't mean much.
Flag Bearing Mo:
Seems to be a little confusion on who-said-what. I know I sometimes get
dazed and confused. <g> It's been especially hard since these back and
posts have been oh-so-long! I believe, Jenny, that you meant to quote
Firoza. But *this* 30 year old thanks you for the Hooray!
>Well, just now I went through the archives and gave up after finding
>more than forty posts on exactly this topic. I am very unclear how
>you managed to miss them, as there have been several after Christmas.
I haven't seen them either. Maybe it's been gone over so many times
that H/Hers assume that when they allude to this subtext, it's clear
what they mean. I'm open to seeing it (since joining HPforGU, I've
looked for it as I've reread the books--and even found it here and
there!) but since joining this list just before Christmas, I don't
believe I've seen a simple list of phrases/incidents/etc. that support
Hermione Likes Harry.
I know such a list is coming in the FAQ, and I don't want to throw
gasoline on what seems to be a fire in a jam jar...I just want you to
know that it's not only rabid R/Hers who plain old just don't get the
Flag Waving Mo:
Thanks AmyZ! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one and that it's not just
R/H-ers. :) That said, perhaps we could be a little less harsh? I know it
gets tedious when you feel you're repeating yourself (I teach middle school,
I AM a broken record! <g>) But I think that a gentle reminder is all
necessary. I for one read EVERY shipping post but I still don't have a clear
understanding of the H/H argument. Perhaps I'm a bit thick or perhaps, as
Amy stated, it isn't as clear as some think. Who knows? I know I'm eagerly
awaiting the FAQ's. :)
This is why we don't cluster and only talk to one another all the
time in places where disparate PoVs are not encouraged. It gets
boring talking about how right we are and how much Harry and Hermione
are meant to be with other like-minded souls. Not to mention "time
Now, now Ebony! I don't think that's fair! We may have our ship in common,
but it's hardly an "I sooo agree with you- you're so right-kiss-kiss-Love
Fest." We enjoy discussing and arguing the books as much as anyone. :)
Speaking for myself, I enjoy hearing and discussing other POV's. That's why
I belong to this list. I also enjoy a plethora of fanfic, which includes
several authors that subscribe to this list. :)
Just because some of us get together to discuss canon, fanfic, etc. as OBHF
> on the Good Ship R/H, it does NOT mean that we don't enjoy a good debate!
Why just the other day Cap'n Kathy and I got into a rather heated row over
what to do about the loo. (I still say that a nice tan tile will compliment
the Weasley-red towels and accessories. She has her heart set on dragon
stencils Yuck!) It took three petty officers and one house-elf to separate
us! And I won't even go into the the spats I've had over who thinks they can
beat me at chess! Ebony, do stop by and *tell* them that I am *that* good.
R/H First Mate and Champion Wizarding Chess Player :)
Still waving the white hanky! Hold your fire until I get out of this damn
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 12:18 am
Subject: SHIP: How Shippers Come to Be
Well, this has been an interesting day for shipping. I am finding myself
worked up at the moment to respond to many of the things that have been said
recently, but I had to reply to this:
>R/Hr shippers tend to be newer fans of the books. They went from one book
>the next, and so on, not re-reading a million times * before * moving
>They make their opinions, then go back and re-read the books, pulling
>what supports R/Hr, and convince themselves that Is The Way It Is.
>The idea is - there has been subtle H/H overtures for a long time. But
>only catch them when you *really* look. Now, obviously, there will be
>bunch of people yelling "no, no, I have thought it was R/Hr and I
>reading HP before it was cool!" or "I am a H/H shipper, and
I just started
>reading them." I know. It's just a theory. I'm certain there is an
>to that rule.
I realize this is just a theory, but I must whole-heartedly disagree with
interpretation of the Good Ship R/H, at least. (I obviously cannot speak for
anyone on the SS H/H.) I, for one, have read each book multiple times and
analyzed and re-analyzed them just as closely as any H/H-er, and I know this
to be true of many of the others aboard my ship as well. As I said, I know
you were just throwing this out as a theory and I am not trying to flame you
or anything, but I had to respond because, quite frankly, I am really tired
the insinuation that R/H-ers are somehow not reading the books with same
heightened perception and advanced reasoning as H/H-ers. True, many younger
fans are R/H, perhaps because it is "the more obvious interpretation",
H/H-ers might say. Personally, I see just as many young fans who are H/H
because of the whole Hero-Gets-the-Girl thing, which is a less well-reasoned
position as well.
I completely disagree with the idea that there are "subtle H/H overtures"
(obviously) and I have detailed my reasons for this countless times, so I
won't go into it here.
As long as we're analyzing ship preferences, I would be interested to see
many other vocal shippers have jumped from one major ship to another at some
point. I have admitted, reluctantly, that I once was half-heartedly H/H (Hey!
Admitting is the first step to healing!). Ebony has said the reverse, as she
went from half-hearted R/H to out-and-out H/H. What about other people?
And by th by, Firoza has officially been promoted from Bouncer to
Sergeant-at-Arms of the Good Ship R/H, with a Special Service Award for
extreme valor in the face of enemy fire. :)
Captain Kathy of the Good Ship R/H
AKA Elanor Gamgee
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 4:34 pm
Subject: SHIP: Ships, etc.
Wow. I get busy with work and all sorts of things go on here. I read
through the SHIP posts and started to respond individually, but I
figured I'd be backtracking, so I thought I'd combine a bunch
of thoughts into 1 post. I apologize if I'm being obvious –
I've been grafted to my office chair for three days now and have
possibly lost all common sense. Here goes:
1. Someone stated that R/Hrs think H/Hr's theories are bunk. Not
true. I understand the arguments, I just don't agree with them
<g>. This doesn't mean I think the people making the arguments
are uneducated, unintelligent, or that I don't respect their
2. Character interpretations are based on personal experience. I
interpret from the post-Yule Ball argument that Hermione likes Ron
because at 14 (or now at 30) I would not have said something like
that to a boy unless I meant it literally. Other HP4GUs have agreed,
and I think this is a valid argument. On the other hand, some members
have stated that they interpret this as something said in anger, they
can relate, and that it should not be taken so literally. This is
also a valid argument. Does this make the first theory therefore
irrational? Nope. Character interpretation isn't a black and
white issue, and just because you don't agree with an
interpretation of subtext doesn't mean it's nonexistent or
3. This is a group of intelligent, interesting people, and I visit
here because I enjoy the posts. To emphasize a point, however, I've
seen posters deliberately misquote or not-so-subtly suggest
other posters lack intelligence because they overlook
"obvious" material. This makes the original poster feel angry
and foolish and the responding poster look like they can't defend
their theories without resorting to nastiness. Re-read before you hit
4. Could everyone watch the "lumping all opinions into one
ship" thing? Just because one person posts an opinion
doesn't mean every other shipper has the same opinion. In
anything I post relationship-related, I try to make sure my point is
well thought out and reasonable; it makes me grit my teeth to
see "All R/Hrs think Hermione and Ron should get together just
because they think it's unfair for the hero to get the girl and
for no othe reason" type posts. I'm sure some H/Hrs feel the
same way about some of the generalizations thrown out in argument
against their ship.
5. Moey, I totally agree with you on the bathroom tile thing on the
Good Ship R/H. Captain Kathy, I'm sorry, but the stencil thing
isn't going to work. We went with you on the Fred/George
mural in the dining hall; you're just going to have to give on this.
6. Cassie, I'll up the offer to make DS R/H to $75. I think your
Ron is the bee's knees.
7. Read my stories (thought I'd slip that one in there <g>).
They're R/H in nature, but as I said earlier, I respect and enjoy
the opinions of the list members, and I'd love to have your
thoughts to help improve my writing. If you have trouble stomaching
R/H – well, they're really short!
That's it – my 2 cents. I'll stop now. I'm going to go
join my fellow SugarQuiller's for dinner on the Good Ship R/H
From: "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink@h...>
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 5:26 pm
Subject: SHIP: Why Mo Has the Right Idea (veering OT)
Good evening, list...
"Thanks AmyZ! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one and that it's not
just the R/H-ers. :) That said, perhaps we could be a little less
harsh? I know it gets tedious when you feel you're repeating
yourself (I teach middle school, I AM a broken record! <g>)"
AMEN! :::hugs Mo with understanding::: We middle school teachers,
IMHO, deserve to be canonized. Won't make up for the paltry pay and
the lack of societal respect that accompany the job, but it's a
Anyway, I came home from a great day at school (Ancient Egypt is
FASCINATING, and my kids are loving this unit... more about that on
the Chatter group, I think) and was looking forward to a sensible
online discussion on canon ship formation and text vs. subtext. Last
night I tried my best to explain my position clearly, thumbing
through a slew of old posts and straining my brain to save myself a
flip-through of over 1500 pages of canon.
Instead, I'm reading posts decrying alleged foul play, red cards
flashing, and rhetoric that contradicts itself within the same post,
and then goes back to the original reasoning.
The thing that bothers me most about the shipping debates on this
list is that so many participants won't abide by the rules they
themselves have requested.
For the record--if I was an R/H shipper, I was a very reluctant one.
R/H was never a ship preference for me--it was based upon a number of
things. And I'm sure my ship preference was always H/H... because I
mentally argued with JKR even after coming to a post-GoF, R/H
conclusion. Kathy and Elizabeth, I'm intrigued... can you really say
that H/H was a real preference for you? Or were you as disquieted on
the SS H/H as I was on the Good Ship R/H?
If my gut wasn't H/H, there is no way that a bunch of adolescents
could have persuaded me to their side. My students have tried to
persuade me on the merits of everything from anime to Lil' Bow Wow,
and usually I just stare at them blankly. And I'm sure I would have
rejected the inner tube Penny tossed me in July if I hadn't had H/H
But... so what? That's why I became a shipper... but then again, I
ship absolutely *everything*--movies, books, television shows. So
this doesn't generate into another round of "How I Became a Fill-in-
the-Blank Shipper", I'll get to the point.
I'm taking the white flag away from Mo, and waving it myself.
I had a list of a half dozen posts that I was going to respond to.
But this is ceasing to be fun. I consider redlining argumentative
essays for consistency in rhetoric work, not recreation. That isn't
meant to come across as anything but honest. When I get to the point
where I have to delete paragraph in which I e-lecture about the
difference between facts/inferences/opinions or QARs before I can
hit "send", it's time for me to be quiet for a while.
Although I love debating in forums online and in real life, I see
nothing further that I can contribute based on canon to the shipping
debates on this list. There are no new books, and I've laid all my
cards out on the table. After the 12th, ship posts that have nothing
to do with canon will be deemed OT and banished to the Chatter group--
and I say it's a Good Thing. Lately I'm envying the no-shippers--and
wishing their U-Boat was a real option. Fandom life seems so easy in
their submarine. And none of them are half as misunderstood. :-)
It's really gotten to the point where I have nothing left to say.
"This is why we don't cluster and only talk to one another all the
time in places where disparate PoVs are not encouraged. It gets
boring talking about how right we are and how much Harry and Hermione
are meant to be with other like-minded souls. Not to mention "time
"Now, now Ebony! I don't think that's fair! We may have our ship in
common, but it's hardly an "I sooo agree with you- you're so right-
kiss-kiss-Love Fest." We enjoy discussing and arguing the books as
much as anyone. :)"
<vbg> -- I'll leave it at that. :)
Mo also said:
"Speaking for myself, I enjoy hearing and discussing other POV's.
That's why I belong to this list. I also enjoy a plethora of fanfic,
which includes several authors that subscribe to this list. :)"
An emphatic "me too"! Some of my *favorite* people are R/Hers--Kathy
is a great one for fanfic recommends, B Bennett is one of my Top 20
fandom writers, and I visit the SugarQuill on a regular basis. Two
of my betas are R/H, and one is D/Ha. The fanfic writers who are
featured on the list I moderate run the shipping gamut. The majority
of fellow HP fans that I chat with on a regular basis (cough!daily!
cough) via IM are *not* H/H. I'm neither an R/Her nor a slasher, but
I enjoy visiting their online forums. That's not shipping--that's
just being a well-rounded HP obsessive. :-)
You see, when HP fandom grows to the point in which we have real
conventions (don't you dare laugh! It's coming sooner than you guys
think!), I want to have dinner with all these people, attend the
lookalike/costuming contests with them, enter the virtual Quidditch
tourneys, and engage in a CM filksing with the best of them. No
matter *what* their ship or slash preference.
And Mo, I'm sure you'll beat me at chess. :-) But that's OK--you
know that we teachers can talk shop all day, so it'll still be a
--Ebony AKA AngieJ
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 10:16 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: How Shippers Come to Be
MC/Ginny Love wrote:
>At this point, everyone is against me. The H/Hers know I'm
>not one of them, and the R/Hers are acting like I'm from Mars. I'm one
>you, damn it!
Well, of course you are! You are our excellent Marketing Director. We'd
never throw you to the sharks, don't worry.
*Turns to list* See, there is differing interpretation represented on the
Good Ship R/H. Told ya so.
>I am not saying that R/Hers don't read the books with the "heightened
>perception and advanced reasoning as H/H-ers". At all. God, you must
>really * been pissed at the 'cool kid' analogy.
I didn't mean to imply that that's necessarily what you were saying. What
was trying to say is: That attitude is one I have seen implied fairly
consistently and your statement seemed to reflect it. Your statement just
brought my irritation with it to the surface.
>Before GoF, we don't see any R/H at all, not even Ron unknowingly mooning
Actually, I disagree with this. True, we don't see any *obvious* signs of
anyone mooning over anyone else, but I think that there is plenty of building
of R/H tension, right from the very first time they meet. And I was sure by
CoS that Ron liked Hermione. There are a lot of clues, I think. But I think
they've been listed before, so I won't go into that now unless someone is
dying to argue it.
All right, I'll stop there, because I still have bunches more messages to
through and I'm sure lots of fascinating replies to this thread have already
>MC, aka Ginny Love, who is a R/H shipper, wheather her fellow shipmates
>it or not. Grrrr....
We do like it! I'm sorry if you took offense to my original post. I was
rather...er, worked up...about some of the other messages that came through
yesterday, so I may not have been as pleasant and bubbly as usual <g>.
AKA Elanor Gamgee
Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 2:18 pm
Subject: SHIP, CHAT: re: More info
--- In HPforGrownups@y..., Slytherin_Daughter@y... wrote:
> Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend? The answer to that
> is in Goblet of Fire... (Yay, Zsenya, you made it through!)
<And this raises the very shippy question of "Whaaaaaaaat?" Is
yes or a no? That could be taken both ways! That was evading the
question! Arrrgh! >
Well, I know how I intend to take it <g>. Seriously, if I were JK,
I'd be evasive, too - this must be great fun for her! I'm just
delighted Zsenya had a question addressed, AND I'm thrilled to hear
that JK approves of fan-written fiction. This and the textbooks -
it's been a good day!
Date: Fri Mar 16, 2001 12:35 pm
Subject: Re: J.K.Rowling & The Legend of Rah and the Muggles
--- In HPforGrownups@y..., my_email_1@y... wrote:
<clip of an unsigned email that appears to be from the Stouffer camp>
> We would all be very stupid to assume that this is a coincidence.
>How can Rowling make up a story about sitting in a train and making
>up the characters, while she took the ideas from Stouffer? J.K.
>Rowling is taking all the credit for characters she did not
You are welcome to assume your own stupidity, but please do not do it
on my behalf. If anything, I find it rather insulting that I'm asked
to agree that similarities in two different works of literature
automatically equal plagerism. There are only so many unique names
and terms that can be conceived of, and I don't find it a stretch to
believe that two original books might have things in common, like the
very common names Larry/Harry, Lily/Lilli, or a brown-haired boy with
round glasses/a black haired boy with round glasses. I *do* find it
rather unbelieveable that Stouffer claims to have created a "Keeper"
of anything - this appears so many times in literature and in movies.
Why in the world would Rowling choose to steal these few and not-
particularly original aspects of Stouffer's books, when she's
obviously proved she has more than sufficient imagination of her own?
Stouffer wrote a little book that she did rather well with - good for
her. But the facts she's presented do not support her claims.
B (who may now be fired from her post as Good Will Ambassador of the
Good Ship R/H, but who really detests condescending, unsigned posts)
Date: Sat Mar 24, 2001 2:14 pm
Subject: Re: Percy Lovers Unite
--- Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin@s...> wrote:
> Hi --
> I'm a card-carrying member of Percy Lovers Unite & I second all of
> Trina's thoughts!!
Penny - like Kathy usually is - I'm amazed to find that we are in
total agreement on this point! I, too, am a big fan of Percy...
Arabella and I are working on a post-Hogwarts fic, and I have really,
really taken to Percy as I write about him. I generally agree with
what seems to be a commonly held suspicion that, if forced to choose
sides, Percy may choose the Ministry initially, but eventually will
be reunited with his family.
I also think that JKR has put hints throughout the books to show
Percy's "human" side, so to speak. There's a point in PoA I think
(it's over the Christmas break) where Ron suggests playing with a set
of Gobstones that Percy left behind. Now, I ask, can he really be
all that uptight if he owns a set of Gobstones, which, if I remember
correctly, explode or something like that?
There are other instances - for example, in PS when Percy tries
to "help" Harry play chess, where Percy seems to want to join in
everyone, but he's already sort of been branded as a "goody-goody"
And, like Hermione (IMO), he may tend to brag on occasion, because he
really does do pretty remarkable things, but for school age children,
more often than not, academic achievements are not praised as much as
they could be. Percy's a smart kid - we know that.
Also, although this is more in my head than in the books, I tend to
think that Percy is *very* hurt when his brothers make remarks or say
things to him that draw him in an unflattering light. I mean, in CoS,
they all assume that Percy's upset about Penelope's condition because
she's another prefect. At the time they don't know that she's his
girlfriend, but I mean, geez, what an awful, cold thing to think
about your brother.
Fred and George, as much as I love them, are rather hard on poor
Percy, although, I suppose it's helped his character development to
have to deal with them...
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:31 pm
Subject: Re: Character Summary: Hermione Granger
> As for Transfiguration, that point came from message #1518 (this
> -- a message from R/H captain Kathy. You make some good points
> her performance in other subjects; however, I don't disagree with
> Kathy's point that there seem to be more references to her
> Transfiguration than in other subjects. She's obviously great at
> all .... but it seems she's in a class by herself as far as
> Transfiguration goes. There is more than one mention by McG that
> Hermione can do a transfiguration that no one else has mastered.
I thought this was really funny, because when I first read the part
about Transfiguration in Penny's well-documented Character Summary, I
thought, "That's random. Who said that?" <sheepish grin> So,
course, I had to go back and see what I said.
Just to clarify, the point came up in a thread about all the
important characters who excel in Transfiguration (the Marauders,
McGonagall, Dumbledore). I responded with:
>And Hermione is also really good at Transfiguration (then again,
>she's good at
>everything, but there are several very specific examples given of
>she is able to transfigure things the rest of the class can't).
So, see, I was really trying to support the idea of Transfiguration
being somehow a "Good" area by allying Hermione with it, rather
saying she was better at it than anything else. Although I agree
that she is very good at it, we know if course that she's good at
lots of things. And I do agree with the idea that she is developing
a mentoring relationship with Professor McGonagall (quick, Penny! add
that to the list! <g>) , so I could see that she might work
especially hard in Transfiguration, because Professor McGongall's
approval is important to her.
I hope my rambling makes sense. I'm getting out of practice with
posting, what with the lack of shipping battles and all, ;)
AKA Elanor Gamgee
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys/ Ginny Weasley
> I don't think it's Harry's fame and status so much that concern
Krum. It's partly the Skeeter article and partly the fact that, as he
says, Hermione talks about Harry all the time. Perhaps if she talked
about Ron all the time he might be more aware of Ron's existence.
Sure, although if you're making conversation with someone you don't
know very well, what do you talk about? Things you might have in
common. Harry is something in common between Viktor and Hermione; Ron
Cassie also wrote:
> I'm not too surprised that Ginny knew who
> Hermione's date was; I don't think Hermione actually meant it to be
> a big secret until Ron started being a twit to her about the Ball,
> *then* she decided to be close-lipped about it.
Maybe not, and you're right, there isn't canon evidence that Hermione
is tight with Ginny, but Catherine does make a good point - Ginny
knows about Hermione's date, but Lavender and Pavarti don't. Of
course, if it wasn't meant to be a secret then there are reasons they
might not know (the simplest - they didn't get around to asking
before she decided not to tell anyone else), but it does seem that
Hermione might have told Ginny about the date in confidence and did
intend to keep it a secret.
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:40 pm
Subject: Re: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys
> Yes, you might use some common interest to get conversation going
within a new relationship. That might explain the initial subject of
Harry coming up in their conversations. But, Krum says that Hermione
talks about Harry "all the time." That's going above & beyond
conversation-starter, isn't it?>
It may be above and beyond a conversation starter if you've moved
on to friendship; it might not be if you know the person likes you
romantically, you don't return the feelings, and you're trying to
be friendly and offer polite conversation while keeping your
distance. We really don't know what Hermione thinks of Viktor,
but if she likes him yet has no romantic interest in him and wants to
keep a line drawn between them, then sure, I could see her continuing
to bring up Harry, a point in common, as a distraction
to stop their conversation from turning more personal.
B, who used just such a conversational tactic last week when friends
introduced her to a nice young gentleman in whom she had no romantic
interest but did not wish to offend
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 3:43 pm
Subject: Re: SHIP: Hermione & the Boys
>B, who used just such a conversational tactic last week when
> friends introduced her to a nice young gentleman in whom she had
>no romantic interest but did not wish to offend.
> What, you talked to him non-stop about Harry? How did he take it?
He said "Harry who?". Any wonder why I blew him off? <g>
>B. is now wondering if Cassie has a point,
> and Cassie really doesn't, except that yet again due to Harry's POV
> we really have no idea why Hermione talks about Harry so often to
> Krum. Alas! I did think it was significant upon my first read, but
> that's subjective.
I think it is significant; we just don't know how. As Pippin brought
up, maybe she specifically didn't talk about Ron because she likes
him, or maybe Harry just happens to be her favorite topic of
conversation (he certainly comes up a lot in mine), or maybe she is
misleading us all and has the hots for Neville (he has the potential
to turn out well. Well, if he doesn't get killed).
<sigh> I'm ready for the next book.
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2001 11:46 pm
Subject: RE: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Hermione & the Boys
Oooo, goody, shipping threads! I hate it when I work late, because everybody
says what I was going to say before I get a chance to check my email. :( You
will notice, however, that this doesn't stop me from responding...
>There's plenty of H/H evidence
>in GoF too, you know. Her answer was quite ambiguous in my mind.
>Hermione's feelings are quite open to more than one interpretation.<g>
Plenty of H/H evidence...well, that's open to debate. But we already know
that our interpretations differ greatly, so I won't go any further on that
point (remembers the Great Semicolon Debate and shudders).
For what its worth, I think JKR's answer to Zsenya's question <waves at
Zsenya> WAS ambiguous...but I suspect it was more to keep things that are
"under the surface" (so to speak)...well, under the surface. I know,
it's blindingly obvious that Ron is jealous and likes Hermione, but, as star
pointed out awhile ago, it never actually SAYS so in the books. We as adults
can see it clearly (and some of us see Hermione's feelings as being one way
the other as well). But all we really have is subtext to go on, either way.
And subtext, apparently, is in the eye of the beholder. :)
JKR's answer also makes me think of one of Peg Kerr's excellent posts from
back on secrets--on how respecting others' secrets is a vital part of being
"good guy". Here's part of the post: (This is in the Files section,
"Essays--Peg Kerr", and it's a fascinating essay which I highly
>Dumbledore, Harry's guide, seems to be teaching him that secrets are best
>kept until they are "ripe," but they must told when the time
>Significantly, they must be told by the person who the secret belongs
Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that I see JKR sort of "protecting"
the characters' secrets too, when she gives ambiguous answers like that (and
am referring to more than just shipper-type questions here, though obviously
some strong emotions are involved there).
>Like Heidi said, some of us think the fact that she kissed Harry at
>>>the end of GoF could be a signal that she has romantic interest
I don't want to get into the whole KISS debate again, because we've been
through it all before, but I just want to say 2 things on this:
a) I was under the impression that most H/H-ers felt that THE KISS was fairly
weak as H/H evidence. But perhaps I am wrong.
b) I personally feel that interpreting THE KISS as romantic completely takes
away from the story at this point (and I am not just saying this because of
the ship I captain). The mood and tone of the book at that point is one of
watching and waiting. I found the end of GoF especially creepy because harry
is, in essence, leaving everyone who cares about him just at the time when
needs them most. To put a romantic spin on that kiss, IMO, also negates
Hermione's sensitivity. To me, it was quite clear that she kissed Harry on
the cheek because she knew he needed support. The "did something she
never done before" part, to me, just emphasized that Trio is getting
and they are going to face new trials and deal with them in more mature ways.
Wow, for not having much to say on that, I sure said a lot. ;)
>She couldn't be bothered to talk to Viktor Krum, who had
>just saved her from the lake & declared his feelings for her, because
>she was too busy cheering for & talking to *Harry*.
OK, if I were 14 and had some guy just declare his feelings to me after a
public display of his affection, and I was unsure how I felt about him and
feeling really uncomfortable, I would find someone else to talk to quickly
too. And I might busy myself cheering for my best friend as an excuse to
avoid talking to lover-boy too. But maybe that's just me.
>Regarding Krum, his jealousy of Harry is understandable, whether
>founded or not. <snip>. It is highly unlikely that Krum even noticed
>existence, apart from his being Harry's friend. He sees Harry as a rival,
>period, whether as a competitor in the Tournament, or over Hermione -
>two have naturally come together.
You took the words right out of my mouth, Catherine. Whenever people cite
Viktor's question as H/H evidence, I just think, "Huh?". It seems
clear to me
that his jealousy is a product of Hermione talking about Harry (a point which
B. and others have covered very well already, so I'll leave it alone here),
Rita Skeeter's articles, and knowing that Harry is The Famous Harry Potter.
don't think it would even occur to him that the red-haired kid could be a
rival. I think Viktor, like a lot of other people, underestimates Ron.
In fact, I think it more than likely that a Hermione-who-likes-Ron would *not*
talk about Ron in front of Viktor. She's keeping that to herself. Besides,
wouldn't it be uncomfortable to mention the guy you like in front of the one
who is pursuing you wildly? (And vice versa--remember how uncomfortable she
is talking about Viktor in front of Ron.)
And I still think the fact that Ron shows no obvious jealousy over the
articles linking Harry and Hermione indicates the lack of romantic H/H tension
(the Ron in my story notwithstanding <g>).
> (By the way, what is a Shipper?)
LOL! You are, dear. ;) A lovely stateroom is being prepared for you aboard
the Good Ship R/H as we speak...
>(But please don't beat me up over this, I'm not objecting to H/H,
>just think the other is more likely).
Oooo, I'm objecting! Go ahead, beat me up! (Kidding! I'm kidding! Don't
ram the ship, please!)
>Really? I've never gotten any sense that Hermione and Ginny were in
>any way close, and have always felt a little bad for Hermione that
>she doesn't have female friends. I don't get the slightest sense that
>she confides in Ginny -- there's never been a single scene in which
>we see her hanging out with Ginny casually and for fun; she never
>sits with her at meals or in the common room or the library.
She does hang out with her at Burrow, and at the World Cup. And we do see
them eating breakfast together, as someone mentioned...and I still think the
fact that Ginny knew about Hermione's date is very telling. After all, if
Hermione hadn't meant it to be secret, wouldn't someone else have known and
told Ron? (Ooo, imagine if Fred or George had gotten their hands on that
information...ooo, fanfic idea forming...)
>She's also, IMO, not mad because he hadn't noticed she was a girl. She
>was mad because he wanted the prettiest girl he could find and then when
>he wasted too much time & got rejected to boot, he suddenly turned
>"good old Hermione."
I agree and disagree here. I think it's pretty clear she's angry that he
hadn't noticed she's a girl. But I also agree that she was mad about asking
her at the last minute after the pair of trolls remark. I think that the fact
that he did it so idiotically ("You *are a girl...") just made her
>Well, she eats all her meals with Harry; they walk to class together;
>they sit in class together; they leave class together -- there is no
>mention of her spending much time with Ron.
Again , I quote:
"Hermione was furious with the pair of them; she went from one to the
trying to force them to talk to each other..." (GoF, UK ed, p. 277)
I think it's pretty clear that she was spending time with BOTH of them during
that fight. Perhaps her time was a little more weighted toward Harry because
he didn't have anyone else to hang out with and Ron did. Remember, Hermione
knew firsthand how hard it was to have your best friends ignore you--it had
happened to her the year before. I think the way she handles it says a lot
for her maturity level and sensitivity.
Also, in all the books, I think that Ron and Hermione spend a lot more time
together than we see. Pretty much every time Harry is by himself, Ron and
Hermione are together. Whenever Harry comes back from Quidditch practice,
Dementor-defense lessons, or whatever, Hermione and Ron are in the common
>But it has enough freight that if H/H becomes real, we'll all look back
>say "Yeah! Viktor said she talked about him a lot!" (All of
>except Kathy aka Elanor, of course, who will have hanged herself from
>the yardarm or whatever it is they hanged Billy Budd from.)
LOL! Oh, dear, am I *that* vehement? :) I suppose I am. Oh well. Maybe
Hermione will run off to Bulgaria with Viktor Krum after all, and Penny and
can have a suicide pact. <g>
>Hermione was interesting in Krum (IMO) because he as older, and a
>star and yet he was interested in study-a-holic Hermione. He saw her
>as a girl, and she probably liked that because it was/is a role she
I agree (mark that down Scott!). I think Hermione found Viktor attractive
because he was nice, sweet, smart, and liked her. A lot. When you hang out
with a couple of clods who don't notice your newly-repaired teeth, and don't
even notice you're a *girl*, it must be wonderful to suddenly have someone
think you're the bee's knees. And show it. (That part is key.) Also, I think
Hermione doesn't want to hurt Viktor. It's not that she doesn't like him;
just doesn't like him as much as he likes her. I think if H/V were to happen,
it would happen because Viktor would keep pursuing Hermione, and she would
just...let him. But I suspect Hermione's got more gumption than to let that
go too far, because she knows Viktor would get hurt. (And because she's
really in love with someone else...)
>I could go one but this is my general point. Ron is overtly jealous
>but doesn't realise it. Hermione just seems to be suprised at Ron's
>reactions. She can't believe that he is that upset over her going
>with Krum. If she had planned to go with Krum just to make Ron
>jealous would she really be so suprised at his reaction?
Unless she just sort of assumed that Ron would ask her, and went with Viktor
because he asked first. I don't think she necessarily went with Viktor to
make Ron jealous; I think maybe she just realized that Ron was never going
ask her, so she might as well go with the nice Bulgarian Quidditch star who
asked her. And she could be surprised at Ron's jealousy because she assumed
that he wasn't interested in her, since he didn't ask to the ball. I'm not
saying it necessarily happened this way. Just that it could have. :)
>Just for clarification this DOES belong here and not on OT-Chatter
*giggles* Like canonical shipping will be declared off-topic while Penny is
Cap'n Kathy of the Good Ship R/H
AKA Elanor Gamgee
getting her sealegs again...
From: Kathleen Kelly MacMillan <kathleen@c...>
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 12:43 am
Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: The Great Semicolon Debate
Amy Z wrote:
>Okay, will someone please give a message # on The Great Semicolon
>Debate? I've searched the archives for "semicolon" and turned
>only a post from CMC about how JKR's sentences are nicely complex. I
>agree, but it wasn't what I was looking for. I have taken to reading
>through the canon in search of sentences that contain semicolons and
>can be, however remotely, imagined as being SHIP-related. Save me!
I just tried searching too and couldn't find a thing, no matter how I tried
it. Oh well. Here it is, in a nutshell (Penny, please jump in if I'm
misrepresenting anything): It came up when talking about Hermione's annoyance
whenever Fleur pays attention to Ron. Someone [probably Penny :)] had pointed
out that in both instances (after the 2nd Task, and in the Entrance Hall
waiting for the carriages), Fleur kisses (in the first instance) or smiles
(in the second) BOTH Harry and Ron, so Hermione's annoyance could just as
be interpreted as being annoyed at Fleur paying attention to Harry. I
responded that in the first instance, I could maybe see the point, but in
second, the passage reads:
"It's very good already," said Ron, in a strangled sort of voice.
smiled at him; Hermione scowled." (GoF, UK ed, p. 628)
I then went on to say something like "That's semicolon! These things
connected!" and we debated the meaning of punctuation. Really, I think
mostly gets mentioned as an example of the ridiculous lengths to which
shippers go to prove our points. That JKR--so controversial, even her
punctuation inspires debate. :)
To the Mod Squad--maybe this could be added to the page with all the theories
and acronyms listed? It seems like the question has come up a few times from
AKA Elanor Gamgee
who is going to bed, if you people would just stop being so darn interesting!
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 6:09 am
Subject: Re: SHIP: Hermione and Krum...
--- In HPforGrownups@y..., "Scott" <harry_potter00@y...>
> Take this scene with the trio at the Yule Ball in GoF-
> Ron:"...Fraternizing with the enemy that's what you're doing!"
> Hermione: (mouth falls open) "Don't be stupid!"
> Ron:"I s'pose he asked you to come with him while you were both
> the Library?"
> Hermione:"Yes he did, so what?"
> Ron:"What Happened- trying to get him to join SPEW, were you?"
> Hermione:"No I wasn't! If you really want to know, he- he said he'd
> been coming to the library everyday to try and talk to me..."
> I could go one but this is my general point. Ron is overtly jealous
> but doesn't realise it. Hermione just seems to be suprised at Ron's
> reactions. She can't believe that he is that upset over her going
> with Krum. If she had planned to go with Krum just to make Ron
> jealous would she really be so suprised at his reaction?
Zsenya writes: See-here's where all we shippers get bogged down and
argumentative. I would read that scene as not that Hermione
is "just" surprised at Ron's reaction - and that she is surprised
that *that's* what Ron has chosen to get upset about. In other
words, maybe she wanted Ron to say "hey you really do look great and
I wish I'd asked you" but instead, he's accusing her of becoming some
sort of double-agent. In that scene she also mentions that she
thought Ron would be happy - him being a big Krum fan and all, but
now suddenly, Ron is considering Krum to be "The Enemy"
On the Comic Relief chat: Well, I was the one who posed the
question, and I wish now I'd worded it a bit differently. I
specifically asked if Hermione liked Ron as more than a friend
(because I think Ron's feelings are totally obvious). I *should*
have said, "there are debates out there about Hermione's feelings,
some say she has a secret crush on Harry, others think that it's
Krum. I'm wondering if it's Ron that she truly likes" or something
along those lines. JKR said that the answer was in GoF, (another one
of her delightful and ambiguous answers) which makes me happy,
because I know what evidence I can now use, but really, that brings
us around to the whole semi-colon debate, doesn't it?<vbg>
Date: Wed Mar 28, 2001 6:01 pm
Subject: Re: SHIP: Comments on Various Shipping Posts
--- In HPforGrownups@y..., Penny & Bryce Linsenmayer <pennylin@s...>
<sigh> I've got a deadline, but just a few points I wanted to make...
> SEMI-COLON DEBATE: Thanks to ship-mate Heidi for making a new &
insightful point. We don't know that Hermione wasn't already
scowling when Harry notices this. Excellent point!>
I think we're getting confused on the scene we're discussing. Heidi
did make a good point on the scene where Harry notices that Hermione
looks furious; she could very well have already been furious and he
just hadn't noticed yet. The semi-colon scene is different; it reads
"It's very good already," said Ron, in a strangled sort of voice.
Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled." (GoF, UK ed, p. 628)
If, from Harry's POV, Hermione had been already been scowling when he
noticed her, it would have read something like "he noticed Hermione
was scowling". Using past tense of the verb, as well as the semi-
colon indicates that the second part of the sentences relates to
Fleur smiling at Ron. Exactly what the scowl means is certainly open
<There *are* people out there who read the books through, aren't
obsessed & haven't read a lick of fanfic & *still* come to the H/H
conclusion. My sister is one of those types. I asked her over
Christmas what her intepretation of the Kiss was. She shrugged &
said, "Hermione likes Harry." I explained the R/H position in
brief. She looked at me incredulously and said, "There are *really*
people who think Ron & Hermione are going to get together? Pshaw!
Hermione likes Harry; it's as clear as day.">
I just convinced two friends to read the books (that brings my total
up to 3 I've hooked this year alone!), and as they finished CoS, PoA,
and GoF, I asked each if they thought Hermione liked either of the
boys more than the other. Both said no until they finished GoF, at
which they both said it was obvious she liked Ron (and I promise I
didn't lead them). I also explained some of the points H/H'rs make,
and like you sister, both were incredulous that some people think
Hermione likes Harry. I love this about Harry Potter. Half the books
on the bestseller list hit you over the head with the obvious; it's
rare to come across books as deliciously subtle as these.
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 8:37 am
Subject: Re: SHIP: Ron's "wrong" person
> Especially considering that his feelings for Cho are basically an
adolescent crush that will go nowhere (sorry, H/C shippers) due to
Cedric's death and various other factors. (And JKR did say everyone
would fall for the wrong people in Book 4. *cough* Ron *cough*).>
Am I remembering wrong? I thought JKR said this specifically in
relation to Harry (something like "People tend not to fall for people
who might be good for them; therfore, Harry will not fall for Ginny
or for Hermione"). I tried to track back through the chats at
HPGalleries; I couldn't find it, but here's one H/Hrs & G/Hrs should
Q: Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he
going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley?
A: In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not
Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time
for him to change his mind. ;-)
>Naama: You should indeed cough here! The "wrong person" Ron
in GoF is Fleur, not Hermione.>
> Oh? There's at least a colorable argument that he fell for
Hermione. After all, the R/H shippers cite a long trend of evidence
that starts back at CoS indicating Ron's interest in Hermione. Ron
is susceptible to Fleur's veela charms, but I'm not sure if a veela-
induced crazy moment where he invites her to the Yule Ball qualifies
as "falling" for her. >
I agree with Penny. Just because your eyeballs pop out of your head
at the sight of someone doesn't mean you've fallen for them. It seems
to me that even Ron recognizes in GoF that he just can't control
himself around Fleur, but that doesn't mean he's fallen for her.
> But, there've been lots of posts "reminding" us H/H shippers
> silly we're being. Ron *clearly* fell for Hermione in GoF,
>don't 'cha know. Hmmmm.......
Penny, I promise I've never doubted most H/Hrs know this, and I think
I speak for most R/Hrs. I posted on this in the past, but only in an
attempt to sway someone who stated she saw no evidence of Ron's
attraction. But I think maybe when Naama says "falls for", she
means "consciously shows an attraction for". Ron seems to acknowledge
an attraction for Fleur (or at least be really, really embarrassed he
asked her to the ball); he doesn't consciously acknowledge that he
I hope everyone has a good day. I have a deadline, and if I get out
of here by midnight, I'm going to be delighted :b
Date: Thu Mar 29, 2001 3:49 pm
Subject: Re: SHIP: More Comments on Various Threads (lots on Ginny)
> > Am I remembering wrong? I thought JKR said this specifically in
> > relation to Harry (something like "People tend not to fall
people who might be good for them; therfore, Harry will not fall for
Ginny or for Hermione"). I tried to track back through the chats at
HPGalleries; I couldn't find it,
> She did say in at least one pre-GoF interview or chat that all the
> characters would fall for the wrong people. The context had
>something to do with them all becoming adolescents, hormones
>raging ... that sort of thing. I could dig it out, but it would
take time .... time I don't have. Under this logic, I suppose
there's not much hope for my Neville/Ginny theory, which I quite
You guys are right - I hadn't read that particular chat (I'm a little
disturbed that I missed one :*). Here's the question:
Q: Ms. Rowling, I'd like to ask if there [will] be a lot of romances
between the characters in the upcoming books?
A: Good question. I'm having so much fun writing Book 4 because for
the first time Harry, Ron, and Hermione are starting to recognize
boys and girls as boys and girls. Everyone is in love with the wrong
people. Let no one say my books lack realism.
And you shouldn't give up on your Neville/Ginny theory - that has