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Revision date: January 15, 2005

April 2001

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From: THIS POST REMOVED AT REQUEST OF ORIGINAL POSTER
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 3:54 pm
Subject: "We want the Ron Summary; We Want the Ron Summary!"

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/16173


From: bbennett@j...
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 4:18 pm
Subject: Re: [Ron Week]: More Questions

Jim has put forth some very interesting questions about Ron. I'm
tied up at work today (I HATE how this money-making thing interferes
with my obsession!), but as other people answer, I hope to see
clarification on the following points:
A: Jim said that Ron is arguably the least developed of the trio. Do
you mean his skills are less impressive than Hermione's or
Harry's, or that his characterization isn't as well developed
as Harry's or Hermione's? I've personally always seen Ron
as one of the better developed characterizations in the book.
B: Jim asks if Ron suffers from depression, and that a clue might be
his `poor performance in his school work'. Is there evidence
that Ron is a poor student? We know that Hermione gripes at both the
boys for being lazy about their homework, but I've never had the
impression that Harry is a significantly better student than Ron.
I've always pictured both as average students who could do very
well if they'd only apply themselves (and quit making up answers
to their Divination homework).
She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, I loved your "We Want Ron" post, and please fire away with
your Ron comments. I have no doubt an interesting discussion is on
the horizon <g>. And I'll keep my fingers crossed that we get to
Harry before you have to leave for the delivery room!
Best,
B

From: morine10@a...
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 6:21 pm
Subject: Ron Week - NOW We're Talking!!!


Woohoo! Ron week, we are happy now aren't we Cap'n Kathy?!
> Ron is arguably the least developed of the Hogwarts three, but he
> plays an important role in supplying H&H with critical information
> because of his Wizarding background. As late as the 4th book he is
> still filling-in background information that Harry & Hermione didn't
> know because they were muggle-raised (info about giants; attitudes of
> house elves). Here are a few more questions to help keep things
> going during Ron Week:
>
I would argue that Ron is one of the most developed characters in the book.
He is one of Harry's two best friends - and we have learned a lot about him.
He may be a little less mature than Hermione, but he's a boy. He needs time.
;)
> A. The ability to play chess well indicates a high native intellect,
> the ability to think strategically, and the ability to consider a
> large number of simultaneous threats. Good chess players are
> frequently good in science and mathematics. How has Ron demonstrated
> his native ability in areas other than the chess board?
>
Perhaps he will make the Quidditch team and take over where Oliver left off.
Perhaps he will play a key role in the strategy that is used to defeat
Voldemort once and for all.
We saw some of his logical thinking is PS/SS when he correctly deduces that
the enchanted flying key would be silver - like the lock. As far as science
or mathematics, we don't really know. It may be that he is very good in
these classes. We do know that he is meticulous when cutting his ingredients
in Potions class (POA - he has to give his to Malfoy) so perhaps he's very
good in what seems to be the wizard equivalent to chemistry. I do think that
Ron is smarter than many give him credit for. Not many 11 year olds can
consistently win at chess the way he does. That commands a higher level of
thinking that the majority of children that age do not possess.

> B. Is Ron suffering from depression? There are a number of clues,
> including his bouts of low self-esteem, jealousy of Harry and
> Hermione, and poor performance in his school work (despite his high
> intellect, noted above).
I don't think that Ron is suffering from full-blown adolescent depression.
Although everyone at one time or another can become depressed, I feel that he
is just going through normal adolescent turmoil. As far as his grades, I'm
going to argue that we don't know that Ron (or Harry for that matter) has
performed poorly in school. For all we know he could be second only to
Hermione in their year. ;) Hermione does push them to study, and I'm sure
that it helps. Perhaps Ron recognizes that being top student is Hermione's
spotlight and therefore he backs off. Now I'm not saying that he is a better
student than her, but maybe he just doesn't say much about or draw much
attention to his grades. Some people are not competitive in that arena and
Ron may be one of those people.
> How might this play out in later books -- i.e., is Ron a
> candidate to become a DE?
>
I have very strong opinions on this. I know that some people think that Ron,
with his adolescent insecurities, may become an unwitting pawn for the dark
side. Of course I wholeheartedly disagree. Ron has shown steadfast loyalty
to his friends, family, and pets. It is my opinion that someone who is sick
with pain, standing on a broken leg while declaring "You'll have to kill all
three of us!" is not someone that will be easily swayed toward betraying his
friends. IMO, if outright propositioned with, "Money for your friends." Ron
will not do it for any amount. I also argue that he is much to smart to be
tricked or fooled into betraying them.

> C. What does Ron's position in the family have to do with his actions
> and attitudes? Does Ron show any classic "middle child" behaviors in
> canon?
>
This is arguable, but I feel that Percy displays more of the typical "middle
child syndrome" than Ron does. Percy is an overachiever which is a typical
attribute. Also, middle children can sometimes feel alienated from other
siblings. I don't think that Ron feels this way as often as Percy does.

> D. Although Ron is a rabid Quidditch fan, he has not yet made the
> Gryffindor team. How has Harry's success (in his first year!)
> affected their relationship? Would it be a good thing for their
> relationship if Ron finally made the team?
>
I don't think I've ever noticed Ron feeling jealous over Harry's Quidditch
abilities. Being the rabid Quidditch fan that he is, I think that Ron
recognizes Harry's remarkable ability as a Seeker. Since Harry has never
remarked on Ron's abilities it could go either way - he could be remarkable,
or he could truly stink. Ron's natural talent at chess does hint at him
becoming a good Keeper and I do think that he may have some Oliver Wood
'tendencies'. Maybe he will lead Gryffindor to their next Quidditch Cup -
maybe he'll continue cheering from the stands. We'll have to wait for Book 5
to find out. :)

> E. Once Gred and Forge leave Hogwarts in Ron's sixth year, Ron will
> be the Senior Weasley at Hogwarts. How might this change his
> behaviors?
>
I'm a big advocate of the 'Ron will become a Prefect' theory. As we know JKR
likes to drop hints and Ron's brother's have remarked (albeit jokingly) that
he would make an excellent Prefect/Head Boy. Ron also, IMO, is much more
like Hermione than Harry in regard to rule breaking. When Harry is gung-ho
ready to run out the door, Ron is sometimes hesitant. He's much more
inclined to think things through, I think, than Harry. What really will
decide whether or not Ron becomes a Prefect (or perhaps Head Boy :) is how
they actually determine who becomes one. Do they pick some people, like
Hermione, because they are naturals for the position? Perhaps they pick some
people, like Ron, who if given the position would most definitely rise to the
occasion. I must say that I do think that Ron would make an excellent
Prefect. :)
I truly believe that we will see great things from Ron Weasley. It's only a
matter of time!
~Moey
First Mate of the GS R/H, resident of Sugar Quill Island, and
Card carrying member of W.A.I.L.

From: bbennett@j...
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 6:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Ron Week]: Extended

Heidi wrote:
<But I think Ron is, well, how do I say this nicely....I think Ron
has a mean streak sometimes. <snip> I am not saying that merely
getting into a fight with friends is an inherently mean or bad thing,
but his refusal to apologize BOTH times makes it seem like JKR is
*making a point* about him. >
Ron has definitely pitched his fits and unquestionably has a temper,
but is JKR trying to show something more with this? I just don't see
Ron as being that much worse temper-wise than Harry - Harry's just
more passive with his anger. Harry may not verbalize as much as Ron,
but many times he echoes Ron's sentiments by *not* talking –
the "broom" disagreement being one such example. I don't
think this makes Ron meaner than Harry – I just think it means
Ron's got a bigger mouth.
Heidi also wrote:
<And even at times other than the big fight with Hermione in PoA, he
is mean to her - yes, mostly about Krum, like when he almost makes
her cry/does make her cry, at the Yule Ball while Viktor is off
getting drinks (and then has the gall to look *satisfied* about how
upset she is). <clip>
And I'd love to ring his little freckled throat for making her
cry. This is definitely inappropriate behavior, but I think it occurs
because he doesn't consciously recognize his attraction for
Hermione and has no idea how to vent his anger, not because he just
has a mean streak. This doesn't make his actions better, of
course, but I think it makes them easier to understand.
<I know the guns are going to go a-blasting from SugarQuill Island
for this...>
No, no – I accidentally threw a knife at Captain Kathy during our
first summit (I'm not kidding here), so all weapons were
consequently banned from SugarQuill Island. Really, it's safe to
visit, even if you don't want to live there. And you guys know
you love us - we're fun to argue with. <g>
Off to dance lessons,
B

From: zsenya@s...
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2001 7:39 pm
Subject: Re: Ron Week - NOW We're Talking!!!

Moey - you are my twin aren't you - I had a whole response lined up
and you said pretty much everything that I wanted to, but I will go
ahead and put it in my own words...
> > Ron is arguably the least developed of the Hogwarts three, but he
> > plays an important role in supplying H&H with critical
information
> > because of his Wizarding background. As late as the 4th book he
is
> > still filling-in background information that Harry & Hermione
didn't
> > know because they were muggle-raised (info about giants;
attitudes of
> > house elves). Here are a few more questions to help keep things
> > going during Ron Week:
He is? He is the least developed? In what way? I don't think he is
any less developed than Hermione's character and if he is least
developed, then a lot of people seem to have a lot of firm ideas on
him based on very little. Perhaps people get that impression because
Ron is closer to an actual child than any of the other students at
Hogwarts.
> > A. The ability to play chess well indicates a high native
intellect,
> > the ability to think strategically, and the ability to consider a
> > large number of simultaneous threats. Good chess players are
> > frequently good in science and mathematics. How has Ron
demonstrated
> > his native ability in areas other than the chess board?
I'll add to everything that Moey said by saying that Ron was a big
help in working with Hermione and Hagrid towards a case for
Buckbeak. Is this foreshadowing for my dream of Ron as Defense
Attorney?
> > B. Is Ron suffering from depression? There are a number of
clues,
> > including his bouts of low self-esteem, jealousy of Harry and
> > Hermione, and poor performance in his school work (despite his
high
> > intellect, noted above).
Having had very close contact with more than one person who suffers
from depression, I can say that Ron does not seem to be a prime
candidate. He seems pretty well adjusted to me. We don't have
evidence that he does badly in school (do we?) As a matter of fact,
his grades are almost always mentioned in conjunction with Harry's as
being not too bad (but not up to Hermione's standards, of course).
Although in Book 4, he did demonstrate jealousy of Harry during that
fight which seems to have damned Ron in many a person's eyes (despite
Harry's obvious role in the situation), I don't know that I've ever
seen evidence that he's jealous of Hermione. I'm not sure that at
this point in his life, he sees her grades and attentiveness to
schoolwork as anything that one might be jealous of. None of the
depressed people I know would fight the way that Ron does. They
might curl up in a ball and lock themselves in their room, but they
wouldn't throw punches, obviously sulk and be loud about it. Now
that I think about it - Harry is the one who seems more likely to
suffer depression than any of them.
The "turmoil" that Moey mentioned in her post is evident in the book
s and entirely age appropriate. Of course he hates being poor. My
family wasn't dirt poor when I was growing up, but my mother never
broke down and bought the fashionable clothes for me, and boy did it
cause some tantrums as a young teenager. It never developed into
anything more evil than that. I got over it and so, I think, will Ron.
> > How might this play out in later books -- i.e., is Ron a
> > candidate to become a DE?
NO! NO! NO! (okay, that was a bit immature, but it's how I feel). I
am 100% convinced that Ron won't become a DE, although I'm only 90%
sure that Harry won't die (grins at Moey)
> > D. Although Ron is a rabid Quidditch fan, he has not yet made the
> > Gryffindor team. How has Harry's success (in his first year!)
> > affected their relationship? Would it be a good thing for their
> > relationship if Ron finally made the team?
I'm sure that Ron would love to be on the team, but once again, I
don't see any evidence that it's bothering him that much, except when
he sees himself as Quidditch captain in the Mirror of Erised first
year. He enjoys being a spectator very much, and I suspect that he
might even be a little relieved that he doesn't have to go through
what Harry does. Remember also that in addition to Harry, Ron's two
older brothers are on the team and their presence may be more of a
hindrance in his eyes, than Harry. The first time a position really
opened up on the Gryffindor team was fourth year, and Quidditch was
cancelled. I have my fingers crossed that Ron will get to be Keeper
next year.
I'm worn out. I'll defend Ron til the end, because really, no matter
how many *suspicions* people have of him, he hasn't done anything bad
yet, and until he does (if he does) I'm standing by him as much as I
stand by Hermione and Harry. We don't really know that Ron will
cross over to the other side any more than we know whether or not
Harry will become a chain-smoking basket-case in constant therapy.
:)Zsenya, who hopes that after Book 7, all of the Weasleys and Harry
will retire to SugarQuill Island to lounge around in the official SQ
uniform.

From: morine10@a...
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:15 am
Subject: Typical Ron
> Um... 14 year old boys actually do this? At age 14? Still?
>
> Could just be me. But that really sounds like behavior a kid 2-5
> years younger would exhibit.
>
> Even my thirteen year old boys don't do this. My fifth graders (ages
> 10-11) would, but most of my girls would sock the crap out of them if
> they tried it.
>
Ebony, Wow! I'd love to come see your school. Emotionally mature 14 year
old boys? <vbg>
Alas, at the middle school I teach at, the boys (ages 11-14) still do dumb
stuff around girls and many of the girls giggle in a Parvati and Lavender
style. I chaparone all the school dances and work with several clubs and
sports after school and I watch how they interact. While it may not be
dipping the girls pigtails in the inkwell, I'd say that grabbing her
notebooks or pencil cases and playing keepaway is along the same lines. <g>
While it certainly isn't every student, it is a majority, IMO. Of course
this week all stupid adolescent behavior is multiplied times 10. Hormones
rage the week before spring break, and when the temperature goes above 60
degrees - forget it. <g>
To bring this back on topic, I don't think Ron's behavior is uncharacteristic
of a 14 year old boy. I know that you disagree with saying anyone is
'typical' but Ron is the one who has had the most typical upbringing -and I'm
talking in the wizarding world. And when it comes to typical young male
behavior, I would have to go with Ron's before Harry's.
Are Ron's actions/words always the best in a situation? Probably not. Are
they abnormal? I don't think so. He's just growing up. Adolescence is
rough, even if you weren't locked in a cupboard for 10 years.
~Moey
Who glances at her husband in front of his PS2 and wonders when he's going to
mature emotionally. <vbg>

From: Capn Kathy AKA Elanor Gamgee <elanorgamgee@y...>
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:58 am
Subject: [Ron Week]: The Youngest and Most Impressive Weasley Man

Ahoy mateys!
I must preface this entire post by saying that, when I turned my HP daily
calendar and saw a picture of Ron on today’s date, I actually jumped up and down
at my desk. (My boss laughed at me.) So, that will tell you how I feel about
"the youngest and most impressive Weasley man."
Jim wrote:
> Ron is arguably the least developed of the Hogwarts three,
Like others before me, I disagree with this, assuming you mean "least developed"
as in the least developed character, and not the least mature. We know quite a
bit about Ron’s insecurities. We know about his family background. We pretty
much know what he’s feeling at any given time. Ron is an open book, even though
he doesn’t realize how transparent he is. Perhaps if we knew as much about
Hermione’s thoughts and motivations, we wouldn’t be having shipper debates at
all (remember the whole "Hermione’s feelings are a mystery" thread awhile back?)
Well, Ron’s are not.
However, I would like to hear more from those who think that Ron is the least
developed. I don’t quite understand this argument, so I would like to hear more
of the background.
Jim again:
>Is Ron suffering from depression?
I have to say I find this whole idea just...puzzling. I don’t see any evidence
that Ron is suffering from depression. If anybody would be, it would be Harry
(especially at the end of GoF). Ron’s just a typical moody teenage boy, IMO.

Jim:
>C. What does Ron's position in the family have to do with his actions
> and attitudes? Does Ron show any classic "middle child" behaviors in
> canon?
> PS/SS is the book where Ron shows "middle child" behavior.
I think that Ron’s behavior is more that of a youngest child (he is the youngest
boy; Ginny occupies a somewhat different place since she is a girl; Fred and
George do treat him as "ickle Ronnie-kins", IMO). I think this is perhaps why I
identify with Ron, as I am a youngest child in an extremely spread-out family.
Perhaps this is also why I noticed the first time I read GoF that, at the end
when Bill leaves, he DOESN’T SAY GOODBYE TO RON. He kisses his mother, squeezes
Harry’s shoulder, and basically ignores his own brother. Harry doesn’t seem to
notice but I’m willing to bet Ron did. Ron wants attention. He wants approval.
He feels overlooked in his family, and like he is never taken seriously (prime
example: he’s the one who gets the lacy dress robes. What did Fred and George
get? Presumably theirs were secondhand too.)
Given this context, it CAN’T be easy for Ron to share his family with Harry, yet
he does, and we don’t see him resenting that. His mother displays more open
affection for Harry than for Ron (granted, Harry needs it and deserves it, but
that’s not the point at the moment); his brothers show more respect for Harry
than they do for him. Bill and Charlie talk to Harry with respect; Fred and
George give him the Marauder’s Map, and we don’t see evidence of Ron resenting
this. I think that says a lot for him, personally.
Demelza wrote:
>What I find interesting is that Ron likes a loser team and that the motto >of
the team is to "hope >for the best". Ron is an optimist.
Yet he’d never admit it. Ron has a gooey center that he tries to keep hidden.
It’s the same with Loves-His-Pet-But-Won’t-Admit-It Ron. [And
Loves-Hermione-But-Won’t-Admit-It Ron ;) ] He just hasn’t learned to deal with
his feelings yet. Hmm, I think maybe if I had 5 older brothers, and two of them
were Fred and George, I would probably have developed defense mechanisms to
cover my true feelings too.

Heidi:
>But I think Ron is, well, how do I say this nicely....I think Ron has a mean
streak sometimes.
And I think Harry has a mean streak sometimes. Only Harry does just come out and
say it. He gets quiet and passive-aggressive about it. He doesn’t fight with
Hermione in PoA, oh no, he just lets the fight go on and doesn’t do anything
about it (until it’s convenient, and then he halfheartedly tries to patch things
up). Ron’s no meaner than Harry; he’s just more honest about his feelings. And,
as B. pointed out, he’s got a bigger mouth. ;)
Heidi:
>But if he *thinks* you've dissed him, he gets violent, verbally and physically.

I think it’s more if you’ve dissed his family or his friends that he’ll attack.
I don’t have the books in front of me right now to quote exactly, but all the
examples I can think of (Malfoy calling Hermione a Mudblood, Malfoy insulting
his family) fall into this category. And I’m sorry, but I find it difficult to
see how anyone could not love a boy who attacks someone who insults his friend,
winds up belching slugs, and is still going on about how vile the insulter is
even while vomiting slugs. But maybe that’s just me. J
Heidi:
>I am not saying that merely getting into a fight with friends is an inherently
mean or bad thing, but his refusal to
>apologize BOTH times makes it seem like JKR is *making a point* about him.
Two points here:
Harry refused to apologize too. So did Hermione.
It was quite evident to me that Ron was going to apologize after the first
task and Harry wouldn’t let him. I don’t have the book in front of me but I
believe it says something like "Harry knew he was about to apologize and he
suddenly found he didn’t need to hear it"
So I think this argument sells Ron short.
Heidi:
> I know he's fictional and all, but Harry needs some protecting, even against
his so-called friends, and Hermione does *not* need an >emotionally abusive
boyfriend.
Whoa! Now this really does sell Ron short, at least in my opinion. I would like
to point out that Hermione gives as good as she gets. She’s no victim here. Yes,
he makes her cry at the ball. Yes, he’s satisfied about it. BECAUSE HE’S 14! He
doesn’t know how else to vent his feelings. Yes, he was a jerk. I don’t deny
that. But I think "emotionally abusive" carries it a bit too far. And when I
consider that many people who don’t like Ron have actually said that D/H is
preferable to R/H…well, let’s just say I have a lot of trouble reconciling that
statement.

Steve said:
>Ronan said, when Quirrell was killing unicorns, that it is the pure
>and innocent who always are the first to die.
>Cedric Diggory was the first to die this time around.
>Cedric Diggory's wand has a unicorn tail hair at its core.
>Only one other character is mentioned as having a wand with a unicorn
>tail hair at its core. Ron.
You know, I’ve heard that, sometimes, when people are faced with something that
is just too inconceivable painful for them to deal with, they just change the
subject.
How about that Quidditch World Cup?
First Mate Mo wrote:
>Woohoo! Ron week, we are happy now aren't we Cap'n Kathy?!
Yes, matey. Yes, we are!
Mo said:
>I don't think I've ever noticed Ron feeling jealous over Harry's Quidditch
>abilities.
Actually, when you think about it, it’s really astounding how much Ron ISN’T
jealous of, considering that he has been painted as such a jealous person. He
willingly shares his family with Harry. We don’t see him getting jealous of the
Rita Skeeter articles pairing Harry and Hermione (in fact, we don’t really see
him reacting to those until Viktor is mentioned, because he knows that the
Viktor part is true…and the "sniping" scene that has been mentioned so often
happens the weekend after the article is revealed…but that’s getting into a
shipping argument, so I’ll stop there.) And we don’t see him really being
jealous of Harry playing Quidditch. Sure, he’d love to play, he’d love to win
the House Cup. But so would a lot of people. Why is wanting recognition so
terrible? Hermione wants recognition, yet we don’t assume that she’d sell her
friends to Voldemort for a few extra O.W.L.s.
B Bennett wrote:
>No, no – I accidentally threw a knife at Captain Kathy during our
>first summit (I'm not kidding here), so all weapons were
>consequently banned from SugarQuill Island.
She did. She’s not kidding. Watch out for her. She may be the Good Will
Ambassador, but she’s got deadly aim. J
I just want to add that I have seen a lot of posts mentioning Sugar Quill in the
past few days (usually in the "Fire away, Sugar Quillers!" sense, but the plug
from Paula was very nice too!), and I just want to point out that there are
quite a few people on this list who love Ron, who may even be R/H, and who have
nothing to do with Sugar Quill. I am just saying this because I think that a
false antagonism has been built up with Sugar Quill in the past, and I would
hate to see that happen again. Perhaps it is out of line for me to say this, as
it is really Zsenya or Arabella’s place, I suppose, but than again, maybe the
captaincy of the Good Ship has gone to my head.
Now, would you people please stop being so darn interesting, so I can get some
sleep? ;)
Cap’n Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee

From: zsenya@s...
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 6:32 am
Subject: Re: [Ron Week]: The Youngest and Most Impressive Weasley Man

--- In HPforGrownups@y..., Capn Kathy AKA Elanor Gamgee
<elanorgamgee@y...> wrote:

> I just want to add that I have seen a lot of posts mentioning Sugar
Quill in the past few days (usually in the "Fire away, Sugar
Quillers!" sense, but the plug from Paula was very nice too!), and I
just want to point out that there are quite a few people on this list
who love Ron, who may even be R/H, and who have nothing to do with
Sugar Quill. I am just saying this because I think that a false
antagonism has been built up with Sugar Quill in the past, and I
would hate to see that happen again. Perhaps it is out of line for me
to say this, as it is really Zsenya or Arabella's place, I suppose,
but than again, maybe the captaincy of the Good Ship has gone to my
head.
Cap'n Kathy - you have free reign to send out whatever signals that
you like, and here's Zsenya agreeing with you. Just a reminder to
all, although Arabella and I and the other professors are probably
some of the biggest Ron fans out there, it doesn't a) mean that we
don't like Harry at all (Arabella especially, if I may say so, has a
soft spot for him) and it also doesn't meant that everyone who
frequents the SugarQuill message boards (even W.A.I.L.) is a die-hard
Ron fan. We've got lots of Bill, Charlie, and other Weasley fans who
may feel unsure about Ron as well. There are a few of us who just
happen to be very vocal on the subject...
:)Zsenya

From: arabella@s...
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 10:42 am
Subject: Re: [Ron Week]: Extended

> The chess-playing, intellectual Ron seems to
> have vanished. He seems much more jumpy and physical in the late
> volumes.
Well, I don't think he's vanished. It's definitely true that the
references to chess have been much subtler ever since his shining
moment on McGonagall's chess set - but they've been there. And when
he's "jumpy and physical" I tend to attribute it to his being an
early-teenaged boy with a lot of growing going on.
> Can anyone find a reference to Ron playing chess or doing something
> otherwise intellectually stimulating in the last two books, at
> least?
Sure. I don't have PoA with me, but I know that after his fight with
Hermione, Ron steps up to the plate and offers her his help with
Buckbeak's case. He follows through on that offer, is visibly shaken
when Hagrid loses the appeal, and says something about it being
unfair when they'd put in so much work on the defense. Also, during
the time between trials, I believe there's one instance when Ron is so
absorbed in reading up on Hippogriffs that he doesn't notice
Crookshanks jumping up next to him. Then, in GoF, he's up as late as
the rest of them in the library, looking up possible spells for the
second task. He also helps to drill Harry on hexes, etc., for the
third task.
As for chess, I know there are more references than this and I wish I
had time to check through for all of them: "He liked it best when he
was with Ron and Hermione and they were talking about other things, or
else letting him sit in silence while they played chess." - GoF
~Arabella
From: arabella@s...
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:47 pm
Subject: Re: Ron Week: More Questions

> Harry and Hermione don't have these
> preconceptions, as were raised in Muggle homes, but I don't think
> this excuses Ron - he should rise above it.
He should indeed. And in many ways, I think he does. By the end of
GoF, Ron's only truly unresolved prejudice is that against the
rights of the house-elves, and IMO, that issue is unresolved
altogether for everyone. S.P.E.W. seems to dwindle off even for
Hermione (though I'd be surprised if it didn't make a comeback on
some
level) and we never hear anything from Arthur Weasley again after he
gives Hermione his support on the stand for elfish rights at the
Quidditch World Cup.
But as for prejudice aside from that against house-elves: we've never
heard another word from Ron on the subject of werewolves, so I'm
assuming he managed to get over that one. Also, Ron needs very
little prompting to surmount his struggle with his feelings about
Hagrid being half-giant ("'Who cares?' Harry said. 'There's nothing
wrong with Hagrid!' 'I know there isn't, but...blimey, no wonder he
keeps it quiet,' said Ron, shaking his head." And then, "'Well...
no one who knows him will care, 'cos they'll know he's not
dangerous."
Granted, Ron goes on to say that "they're just vicious, giants," but
as he points out, it's more in their natures than anything else, just
as Hagrid points out that it wasn't in his own mother's nature to be
maternal.) From what I've read of Ron, he notices and admits the
prejudices he feels, is able to discuss them, (yes, he even discusses
the house-elves; he may be sticking to the wrong guns, but he's got
guns in that argument - Winky *does* seem extremely miserable having
been freed and though that's the natural struggle of the oppressed,
it is still a difficult struggle for a 14 year old to understand),
and
more often than not, he comes to learn and move forward in his
thoughts. After all, what kind of realistic character would Ron be
if he didn't even have these thoughts to begin with, especially
having
grown up in the wizarding community?
> By GoF, I feel that Ron has seriously regressed. He has almost
> turned into a clown - bitter, jealous and sad on the inside, a
joker
> on the outside.
Wow. That's a pretty negative painting of a character who gives me a
lot of joy; let's see what I can say about that. I'll agree with you
that Ron has a jealous streak. Oh yes. On two levels, really (and I
think it's someone from SugarQuill who said this on one of the
boards; I can't remember whom it was and I apologize for lifting your
logic). First, Ron's jealousy is in relationship to Harry's
limelight. Secondly, his jealousy is in relationship to other
people's (not just Harry's, I imagine) material possessions.
On the limelight issue: I'm hoping that his fight with Harry will
inform Ron's position on this from here on out, and in fact I think
we can already see him beginning to be a bigger person on this front
"In tribute to their recently repaired friendship, Ron had kept the
bitterness in his voice to a bare minimum." That's a pretty good
show for a young guy who's feeling edgy about this whole Yule Ball
business. I'm also hoping that, in light of what Harry has just been
through with Voldemort, Ron will begin to see that the limelight
isn't necessarily the best of all places to be. Of course, that's
just a hope right now, but I have faith in Ron. <g> My final hope on
that score is that Ron will come into a little limelight of his own
that will give him a sense of self-worth that kills his jealousy of
Harry. (Though, as Ebony has beautifully pointed out, Ron already
has
a lot of important things that Harry doesn't have, and if he'd wake
up
and realize it, he'd be a bit better off, emotionally.)
The material possessions issue is a little different; it cuts very
deeply into Ron. He makes comment after comment about his poverty
and other people's comparative ease. He's extremely unhappy about
his
financial situation. But I think it shows a strength, rather than a
weakness, that he is willing to admit this in such a forthright
manner ("I hate being poor.") In my opinion, that's a damn hard
thing
to say, especially in front of your best friend who has money and the
girl you've got a crush on (that's IMO). Ron is at least aware of
who he is and what his struggles are and what motivates him. I think
that's a huge first step to improving himself and overcoming those
emotions.
>This seems what Harry values him for. When they are
> no longer speaking, Harry misses Ron who can make him laugh, talk
to
> him about Quiddich, make Potions and Divination bearable.
Yes. Absolutely. And we know how much Harry values laughter because
at the end of GoF, he more or less purchases some from the twins,
for
his future. "I could do with a few laughs. We could all do with a
few laughs. I've got a feeling we're going to need them more than
usual before long." I think that Ron's wisecracking element is
essential to Harry. Harry loves him for it.
>(I hated Ron during the Yule Ball episode, despite feeling very
sorry
> for him)
Yeah, he was a prat there, wasn't he? Attraction can cause the best
of us to go off the deep end, though, I imagine - and that's what I
see as the root cause of Ron's ridiculous behavior. I don't worry
too
much about Hermione, though - she can take care of herself. She got
him back nice and quick - had him mouthing like a goldfish out of
water by the end of the night. <g>
> Harry and Hermione seem so much more mature
I'll give you that on the level that both Harry and Hermione seem to
be able to contain their emotional responses more readily than Ron
can do. IMO: Harry acts on his core instinct, Hermione on her
logical
deductions, and Ron goes more or less right from the gut - emotion
seems to drive him along and that can be seen as an immature level on
which to function. I personally think there's something
heartbreakingly honest about that kind of emotional impulsiveness,
but that's just my opinion. Also, IMO, Hermione and Ron tend to
function on an identical level from time to time, leaving Harry alone
to shoot for the marrow of the issue. My favorite example of this
is
the passage, "'You just don't like Crouch because of that elf,
Winky' said Ron, sending a cushion soaring into the window. 'You
just
want to think Snape's up to something,' said Hermione, sending her
cushion zooming neatly into the box. 'I just want to know what Snape
did with his first chance; if he's on his second one,' said Harry
grimly..." And then again, at the end of GoF, Ron and Hermione
regard Harry almost as if they are afraid of him. I don't
necessarily see Hermione as so much more mature than Ron, on either
of
these occasions - rather, it is Harry who seems to rise above them
both. Of course having seen what he's just seen at the end, that's
hardly surprising.
> I am hoping that the events at the end of GoF will hope Ron grow
> up.
I can't imagine anybody who really loves Harry remaining unaltered at
this point. And since Ron has shown far more friendship than
fighting toward Harry when all four books are measured, I can't help
thinking that yes, Ron does love Harry and care about him very much.
~Arabella

From: arabella@s...
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 6:06 pm
Subject: Re: Ron: prejudices, meanness

ADVERTISEMENT

> "We never thought of her, did we?" said Ron slowly. "Mind you,
she's
> definitely got giant blood, and she doesn't want to admit it ---"
>
> "Of course she doesn't," said Hermione sharply, looking up. ......"
> __________________________________________
>
> Harry dismisses Fudge's assumption on the grounds that it just has
to do
> with geographic proximity. Ron, OTOH, is quick to think of her
giant
> blood in *support* of Fudge's conclusion.

That's definitely one way to look at it. Another way is to take into
consideration that Ron has spent the better part of the last quarter
of GoF proposing solutions to problems off the top of his head - many
of which aren't top-notch solutions - just for the sake of having
something to propose, something to offer. This is seen again and
again with his continual (albeit impossible) suggestions of
Apparation
on Hogwarts grounds. Also, in recent proximity to his comment about
Madame Maxime, Ron answers Moody with "Yeah, someone could've -
could've pulled him onto a broom and flown off with him, couldn't
they?" because "he too wanted to be told that he had the makings of
an
Auror." It's my opinion that Ron's sort of grasping at straws in
order to be of help, at this point.
However, let's imagine that you're 100% right, and his first reaction
is one of prejudice. You've stated,
> I agree with Ebony -- Growing up in a prejudiced environment is
not
> an excuse for continued prejudice. Ron gives me the impression
that
> he doesn't *get* it.
Okay. Well, first of all, don't we all grow up in a prejudiced
environment, to some extent or another? All of us are products of
our
social origins in some respects and we all bear the marks of those
influences. I think you're being very hard on Ron, to give him no
chance to grow out of this after the age of 15. He's just starting
to
become aware of these ideas on a different level. These ideas
have always been a given, to him. It's just understood that
giants are vicious, it's just understood that you stay away from
werewolves, it's just understood that house-elves are
house-elves. No, of COURSE that's not a good thing, but is Ron
Weasley, age 15, responsible for the foundation of these
prejudices? No. He's a young man who grew up among them. That
is all. Does this excuse him, if he grows to be an adult who
holds these prejudices as truth? No. But is he an adult yet; is he
fully formed and sealed in stone with no room for change? No,
IMO. He's starting to bring up these ideas, to examine them ("Harry
and Ron spent the rest of the ball discussing giants in their
corner...") Awareness and examination are the first steps toward Ron
broadening his perspective. These general wizarding community ideas
about giants, werewolves and etc. have been around him and in his
psyche all his life - but much like his inability at present to say
Voldemort's name, I think these prejudices have ample opportunity to
change. The deal is far from sealed on Ron Weasley and his thought
process.. IMO.
>And, I must say, I really think this spells trouble for any
> Ron/Hermione romance that might develop. It seems like
> such a fundamental sticking point that it will cause alot of
trouble
> in any romance between the two. I don't imagine Hermione is going
> to handle that trait all that well.
She already doesn't. She doesn't tolerate it one single bit, and I
love her for it. And I'll betcha (I admit I'm guessing, but I'm a
hopeful guesser)that she's going to rub off on Ron, whether he likes
it or not. It's great for him, to be so close to two people who do
not have the disadvantage of natural wizarding prejudices to deal
with. They show him a perspective he wouldn't otherwise have had,
and
he can't help but pick up on it, really. IMO. And if he hasn't
shown
major, sweeping signs of doing this yet... well, there's nothing I
can
do here but wait for book five and cross my fingers and hope for the
best.
> > Can someone give some
> > specific
> > examples, aside from the Yule Ball fight, which I will grant you
was a
> > mean moment?
>
> 1. His fight with Harry in GoF. His remarks are rather cutting.
Boy, aren't they? It's absolutely painful to read and breaks my
heart every time. It's painful to read Harry's remarks though, too,
with his "I'm not running around after him trying to make him grow
up!" and his common room badge-chucking - and it's hard to side with
Harry when he wants to give Ron a good hard poke in the back of the
head, in the Three Broomsticks. Though I admit, I wouldn't say no to
giving Ron a good hard poke in the back of the head once in awhile,
too. <g>
> 2. (Paraphrasing as no PoA on desk): "It's too bad Scabbers was
just
> *eaten,* he really used to love these [whatever the candy/sweet
was]."
> [And, by the by, this was the same moment when Harry was in the
process
> of making amends with Hermione!]
Yes, that was a deliberately aimed slight. Absolutely. He misses
his
pet. She won't say she's sorry. There's no evidence that it wasn't
Crookshanks. There is evidence that it was. And Harry's only making
it up to her now because he's got his Firebolt back. IMO.
~Arabella

From: bbennett@j...
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: Ron: prejudices, Harry

--- In HPforGrownups@y..., She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named
> Several people have pointed out that Ron is willing to put his
prejudices aside willingly & quickly. But, thinking to
yourself, "Oh, so & so is a "good" [fill in racial ephithet]; he/she
isn't like the "others" is not abandoning one's overall prejudicial
attitude toward a group. It's just making individual exceptions.>
But isn't this how one learns to put aside prejudices - by
recognizing exceptions on an individual level and moving on from
there?
I also don't think that Ron's ideas about house elfs
can really be discussed without mentioning Harry, who certainly
sided with Ron over Hermione on the issue (albeit passively), and is
every bit as disinterested in S.P.E.W. as Ron. If Ron's prejudices
can't be forgiven, then should we also condemn Harry for his
passive acceptance of house elf enslavement?
B <sigh> - working late again

From: arabella@s...
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:59 pm
Subject: Re: [Ron's Jealousy] and Phobias


> > <snip all the incidents of Ron's bravery/self-sacrifice> Those
aren't
> > the actions of a jealous person.
>
> Well, I don't think anyone would argue that he walks around
displaying
> nothing but jealousy all the time. But, he can still be brave &
> self-sacrificing in times of danger but *also* be jealous of Harry.
Yes. This is so true - conflicting character traits can exist, there
can be inner struggle; it's so real and so compelling to see a well-
written character like Ron, who has so many of the same natural
insecurities the rest of us have (well, I don't want to assume for
others - but *I've* certainly been jealous and know the feeling
well), work to come to terms with himself so that he can continue to
be a help to his friends. This ability for two seemingly contrasting
traits (jealousy and loyalty) to exist within a person is exactly why
I think it's also possible for Ron to be continually loyal to Harry
as the books develop. It's natural to wish things. It's natural to
want what one hasn't got. But Ron hasn't sold Harry out so far - and
he's had a chance to get a lot of that jealousy out in the air at
this point. It's not a secret now, which I think is really
interesting.
> Hermione saw how shocked & scared Harry was. *She* was perceptive
> enough to pick up on this. Ron, however, did not. He leapt to the
> conclusion that Harry had put his name into the Goblet, had found a
way
> to circumvent the age-line & had left him out of it. There's that
> leaping to conclusions again. Why would Ron not be able to see the
same
> reactions on Harry's face that Hermione did? If it's not because he
> leapt to conclusions (out of jealousy or impulsiveness), then
*what* was
> the reason?
Oh, IMO it was absolutely the impulsiveness of jealousy. But I don't
think we have to hold this over Ron (and over him and over him and
over him), especially because he makes an effort to fight this
tendency soon after the fight. He works hard to keep his bitterness
at bay when girls are throwing themselves at Champion Harry's head
before the Yule Ball. I know I cited that in another post, but I
think it's a telling step forward. He's trying, isn't he? Not to
mention the fact that he's clearly not proud of his actions which led
to the fight. ("'I noticed it when I was hanging around with them -
when - you know -' 'We weren't talking,' Harry finished the sentence
for him." GoF Chapter 29) Ron is clearly uncomfortable with his
previous behavior and I see this moment as another hint toward a
changing and maturing Ron. A Ron who is taking things into
consideration and making an effort.
> > He was able to face up to Aragog and his family.
>
> Um .... yes & no. He was silent & hardly able to do more than heave
> himself into the car. I don't know that it's fair to say that he
truly
> confronted & overcame his fears.
I have a real problem with spiders. I'd say the mere fact that
highly phobic Ron followed a streaming line of them into the
Forbidden Forest, in the dark, not knowing what kind of craziness he
was going to encounter, says an awful lot about his ability to
confront and overcome his fears. Yeah, he was silent, yeah, he
jumped in that car - I seem to remember Harry jumping in there too...
let me check... yeah. Oh, and when Harry yells for Ron to get Fang,
he's present enough to do so - "Ron seized the boarhound around the
middle and threw him, yelping, into the back of the car..." So he
managed a care outside of his fear at a pretty terrible moment. And
if that doesn't say enough, then perhaps a better example is in PoA,
when, in Lupin's Defense class, Ron bravely battles the boggart-
Acromantula. He freezes, then raises his wand and gets over it.
So yes. I agree Ron's got a jealous streak, I'm not blind to the
Ronness of Ron. I just don't think his jealousy is terminal to
anybody, and I don't think it precludes any kind of betrayal. I
think it's part of him, and that he's growing up, and that it makes
this whole adventure more complex and interesting, that there is even
a little bit of room left in which to doubt the hero's best friend.
*I* don't doubt him. <g> But it's exciting that there's room for it,
for other readers. Go JKR, way to twist us up.

From: morine10@a...
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 10:33 pm
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron: prejudices, meanness
Dumbledore to Fudge at the end of GoF:
"Extend them the hand of friendship, now, before it is too late," said
Dumbledore, "or Voldemort will persuade them, as he did before, that he alone
among wizards will give them their rights and their freedom."
Fudge then goes on to state that this would be the end of his career because
people hate the giants.
What did the giants do? They were aligned with Voldemort the last time
around. They may very well have committed some unspeakable atrocities, and
the mere mention of them brings forth fear in the hearts of some members of
the wizarding community.
We don't know what Ron has heard about what the giants have done. For all we
know, a group of giants could have come and murdered half of his family in
their beds.
I do not condone racism in any way, shape, or form but I hardly think that
Ron is a racist. He is, however, expressing the fear that is already deep
set in the wizarding community. He gives us the first glimpse of it - before
it is mentioned by Dumbledore and Fudge.
~Moey

From: morine10@a...
Date: Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:34 pm
Subject: Ron & Hermione - Birds of a Feather

In a message dated 4/10/01 11:09:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Namedlin@s... writes:

> I think this is very possible. Why is this necessarily a bad thing?
> What if she's just ambitious & has a strong desire to succeed
> academically because it will open doors for her down the road? She may
> be driven in the academic arena, but is this any worse than wanting
> success in other areas of one's life (such as socially or athletically)?
>
And how, I ask, is this any different from wanting recognition among your
family and peers for your accomplishments? How is it any different from
wanting financial stability?
How is it that one person's wants make them more susceptible to the Dark side
than those of someone else?
I for one do not think that Ron and Hermione are all that different.
~Moey
From: arabella@s...
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 12:06 am
Subject: Re: Ron Week : More Questions
>>IMO, Harry is the one who doesn't look
> > before he leaps.
>
> Harry wades into danger without giving it alot of thought. That's
> true. But, Ron has a tendency to pass judgment quickly, leap to
> ill-considered conclusions (others have said, he said alot of really
> illogical & stupid things in GoF, trying to be noticed, trying to
draw
> attention to himself).
I agree with both those character presentations. Both boys,
differently motivated, have shown a tendency toward rash action at
one point or another.
> I think it's possible that if the Dark Side
> targeted him and knew his weaknesses, he could unintentionally fall
into
> their trap through carelessness. I'm not saying Hermione is
absolutely
> immune from the same thing, but honestly, if you were a DE who knew
the
> both of them, which one would you say was more vulnerable to
> manipulation? I know which one I'd pick.
>
Well, it depends which DE, IMO. Lucius Malfoy, getting his
information from Draco, would probably go after Hermione first. This
is IMO, I'm imagining myself Evil - and I'm seeing that Hermione is a
Muggle-born whose parents are magically unprotected 10 months out of
the year, whereas Ron's got a ton of people looking after him - the
Weasleys are rooted and versed in the magical world and are capable
of fighting for their lives. The Grangers, OTOH, are much more
vulnerable to straight on threats and attacks, which IMO, makes it
much easier to trap Hermione and to make her feel unsafe - at least,
materially. *Emotionally* (IMO) the easier target is Ron. Although
I don't know which DE could possibly know this. Excepting, of
course, Scabbers/Pettigrew/Wormtail, who was privy to the ins and
outs of the Harry/Ron/Hermione relationship for three years. (This
is assuming that the Animagus brain retains all informations
received, which is an arguable point in and of itself, now that we
have QTTA as a reference.) And why is Ron the easiest emotional
target? IMO, it's very well summed up by She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named here:
>I'm saying that impulsiveness &
> rash judgments could cause Ron to fall unwittingly into the hands
of the
> Dark Side. Falling into a trap is not at all the same thing as
> affirmatively taking action to *go over to* the other side.
Exactly. "Falling" and "going over to" are totally different. I'd
actually *welcome* a scenario in which Ron's loyatly is tested -
greatly. I think that would be dramatic and fabulous. We know he
wants money, we know he wants attention - how riveting would it be to
see him make the choice between what he *thinks* he wants (fame and
fortune) and what's truly valuable to him (his friends)? (IMO) And I
think Ron is more than up to the challenge - in my opinion he'd
choose to be true to his heart, and therefore to Harry and Hermione.
But I'm just thinking and hoping and supposing based on what I've
read so far, which is that Ron is the kind of character who can stand
up with a broken leg with a green face against a 'mass murderer' and
willingly defend his friend. I'd LOVE to see what kind of chess
moves Ron would pull out in a DE hostage situation!

From: arabella@s...
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 2:26 pm
Subject: Re: Ron's stubbornness


> > Ron did TRY to make up with Harry before the first task. But Harry
> > wasn't allowing him too.
>
> I don't believe that's true.
Hmm. I do. I think that the night Ron interrupted Harry's
conversation with Sirius, there might have been a reconciliation
coming - if the timing hadn't been so ridiculously bad. I imagine
that scenario for Ron. It's very late. Everyone has gone to bed.
It's been weeks since he's spoken to his best friend, and everyone's
present in his dormitory except for Harry. Therefore I believe that
Ron's objective in going downstairs was to find Harry. Why on earth,
in the middle of a fight, would he go to find Harry? To fight some
more? I doubt it - the fight so far has been mostly passive on Ron's
part. Not so much at the very beginning, but since the first
cutting remarks, the rest of it has all been cold-shouldering. He
hasn't been seeking Harry out and actively throwing cruelties his way.
So, if Ron *wasn't* going down for a fight, that leaves us one other
option. I think Ron was going downstairs in the hopes of finding a
way back into the friendship (perhaps without a plain old "I'm sorry",
probably something more in the way of "Hey, what's up?" just to get
them talking.)
>The way to do it is to say "Harry I
> believe you now and I'm sorry I called you a liar" but he didn't do
> that until after the first task, about a month after the fight
began.
> At that point Harry was very gracious about it and didn't even make
> Ron finish saying it.
Well... okay. Ron didn't say it outright. What he said was, "Harry,
whoever put your name in that goblet - I - I reckon they're trying to
do you in!" Which, IMO, translates as: "Harry, I know I said you put
your name in that goblet, but I realize now that you didn't." That's
the first part of your complaint taken care of - Ron realizes and
admits where he was wrong in this instance. (Granted, he does it a
little backwards. But hey, he's young.) The second part of your
complaint is more complicated - you want a flat out "I'm sorry." And
perhaps it was "gracious" on Harry's part not to make him say it
outright. But IMO, Harry's not feeling "gracious" so much as he's
being an introverted boy who doesn't want a whole lot of emotions to
start getting out in the open. "Harry knew Ron was about to apologize
and suddenly he found he didn't need to hear it." To me personally,
this says that Harry's not too interested in a big speechy apology and
tears and handshaking. Both boys are a little put off, actually, when
Hermione tries to pull out the emotional side of the situation a
moment later. I think that whole apology-without-apology scene is
tense and touching and great. I cried like Hermione. I'm a sucker
for best friends.
> >JKR herself said that Harry's pride was to blame for prolonging
the
> >fight in the Dec. Times article
>
> Yes, I read that too, but if that was Rowling's intention then she
> needs to rewrite the book because that's not what comes across on
the
> page.
To you. It comes flying across to me. Your wish that an author
should "rewrite" her books simply because you did not interpret the
written action in the way she intended, is... not a wish that I can
understand.
> I doubt if there is one person in a thousand would be as easy
> going about it as Harry was. Think about it, you're under enormous
> stress and facing a potentially lethal situation and your best
friend
> just makes it worse.
Ron definitely didn't show off his best colors during this fight. But
neither did Harry. "Easy going"? Harry chucked a badge at Ron's
head and said aloud the words that both of them had been thinking -
harsher words between them, I can't find. "You might even have a scar
now, if you're lucky...That's what you want, isn't it?" I know that
Harry was under intense stress that night and I know that his impulse
was born of absolute frustration. But *what* a thing to do to your
best friend. He shot hard at the very root of Ron's insecurity -
deliberately. And maybe Ron needed to hear it, to know that he was
being totally transparent - but it wasn't an easy going choice, on
Harry's part.
~Arabella
I said it before I'll say it again, I'd knock
> Ron's block off.

From: zsenya@s...
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 3:15 pm
Subject: Re: Ron: prejudices, meanness

--- In HPforGrownups@y..., She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named
wrote:
> Hi --
>
> Glad to see one of the SugarQuill types agrees with my assessment on
> this score. :--)
Um, I don't know if this was intentionally meant to be joking or not,
but isn't classifying someone as a "SugarQuill type" akin to
classifying a person as a werewolf or a giant? <vbg>
There's perhaps a stereotype out there that all regular visitors to
the SugarQuill are staunch defenders of Ron and unwilling to admit
that he could ever be in the wrong (I'm not saying that is the
stereotype, but I'm just using that as an example of something that
*might* be the stereotype)
The truth is that we have all types at SugarQuill just as there are
here at HPforGrownups (which is why members frequent both groups, as
well as others on the web). This whole Ron discussion seems to be
turning into another one of the THEM vs. US rumbles that seem to start
whenever Ron is the topic of conversation. Just as HPforGrownups is
not the only message board that provides an outlet for adult fans of
Harry Potter, SugarQuill is not the only group that loves the Weasleys
and sees excellence in Ron's character. In addition, there are many
people with differing views here at HPforGrownups who have never
visited or intend to visit the SugarQuill.
Before we start coming down on Ron for distrusting werewolves
initially or commenting that all giants might be mean-spirited, let's
maybe take a look at our own prejudices. Everyone has them; not
everyone is daring enough to vocalize them.
Zsenya

From: arabella@s...
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 4:07 pm
Subject: Mean Ron?/Passive Harry? [Was: The Youngest and Most Impressive WeasleyMan]
Hi!
Kathy wrote:
> > And I think Harry has a mean streak sometimes. Only Harry does
just come out and say it. He gets quiet and passive-aggressive about
it. He doesn't fight with Hermione in PoA, oh no, he just lets the
fight go on and doesn't do anything about it (until it's convenient,
and then he halfheartedly tries to patch things up). Ron's no meaner
than Harry; he's just more honest about his feelings.
She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
>Oh?
>
> 1. In PoA, Harry was more than half-heartedly trying to make up
>with Hermione. I don't know where you get half-heartedly out of the
>language in that scene. He approaches her on his own & quietly sets
>about trying to make up with her. Ron interrupts that with his loud
>& mean-spirited comment about Scabbers.
Re: Harry - I don't think that the first attempt at reconciliation was
half-hearted. I do, however, question Harry's timing. Harry waited
until that Firebolt was safe-in-hand before approaching Hermione to
make up with her - up until that point he was more than willing to
double-team cold-shoulder her. And I don't have PoA in front of me,
but when he does approach her, I don't remember an I'm sorry. More
like "Nothing was wrong with the broom," wasn't it? (I can't be
positive.) And then, when Scabbers goes missing and the ginger hairs
are found, Harry sticks with Ron. *Right* with Ron. Until the second
possible reconciliation, which is when he approaches Hermione after
his Quidditch match for a moment, asking to see if she watched him
play. I do think that one was halfhearted. He says something to Ron
about cutting Hermione a break, for as much good as that does
Hermione, who is out of the room. And then there's pretty much
no effort, until Hagrid loses the Buckbeak case.
Re: Ron - Ron absolutely throws in the comment about Scabbers being
eaten, and IMO it's a deliberate "I hope you feel bad." But I think
he jabs at her because he too is feeling pretty bad, and he's fishing
for sympathy and apology. I have to look at his motivation in the
context of the story - it's not just arbitrary meanness. I think that
Ron wants his pet back, and if he can't have that, then he wants a
little consolation for the loss of it. He goes about getting that
consolation in a very insensitive way. But he's not mature enough at
that point to say, "Look, Hermione, I need you to give a little here -
please admit that your cat might have eaten my rat so that we can move
on with this." He's lost a pet he loved and she doesn't ever give him
a touch of sympathy. "All cats chase rats, Ron!" and other comments,
are hardly what he wants to hear. Not that it's Hermione's fault that
Crookshanks was after Scabbers, and not that Scabbers was dead in any
case - and YES my heart is with Hermione during that estrangement from
her friends - but given the evidence, if I were Ron, I'd want just a
little tiny "Oh, that's awful. I wish that hadn't happened." Which
she won't give him. So he jabs for it. And in the end, Ron gives in
first, doesn't he? "You won't have to do all the work alone this
time, Hermione. I'll help." (Yeah, so I have some parts memorized
better than others. <g> What were you excpecting from the
SugarQuiller?) Only then does Hermione stop being stubborn and say
she's sorry about Scabbers.

She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
> 2. <snip>But Ron ignored him. ..... Ron watched her go with a
mixture of anger & satisfaction on his face. *Satisfaction.* He
enjoyed reducing her to tears.
Oh... but IMO, again, Ron just wants her to feel as bad as he feels.
He's helpless right there. The girl he likes (IMO) is dancing with
another boy. Horrible, horrible feeling. Of course he tries to ruin
any fun she might have with Viktor - without even realizing why he's
doing it. I don't think that his choice is right, or condone it, but
I can't go to a place where I believe that dear, abruptly emotional
Ron has a "mean streak" and that he "enjoys" being mean because of
this instance. I think Ron is a frustrated teenaged boy with hormones
he doesn't understand and he has no way of relieving his current
tension, other than to strike out. When he does strike out, and sees
that his hit has taken effect, it satisfies him. Maybe because he got
to have *his* moment, in Hermione's big night. Reaction and attention
(granted, negative attention), much more than deliberate cruelty, was
his aim, IMO.
~Arabella

From: arabella@s...
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 4:17 pm
Subject: Re: Ron's stubbornness
> But still, when Harry needed Ron's support most, Ron joined the
other
> team, so to speak. And accused him of being a liar on top of it.
>
> Harry at this point figures (to me) "what kind of a friend is he
that
> he's going to hold my fame -- which I hate, and can't control --
over
> my head? What kind of friend is he that he thinks I'd lie to him?
What
> kind of friend is he that he doesn't know me by now?"
Oh, you're definitely making me feel the Harry here. I can't stand up
for Ron under this kind of pressure. <g> It's true. It's too true.
Ron was a jerk and that probably really was Harry's inner monologue.
Ron's jealousy was too much for him to handle like a gentleman, and he
didn't handle it like a gentleman, and there was a rotten nasty fight.
But I think that Ron figured out that he was wrong, and I think that
it was smart and really strategic of JKR to clear the air between Ron
and Harry on a few issues at this point in the story - let them have
it out at one another - let there be accusations and badges chucked -
so that they don't have to worry about that when it's time to come
together and face the Death Eaters. I'm hoping that the fight served
both of them, for future events.
> He was hurt, and wanted to hurt back in kind. It may not be a
_right_
> response, but it is a human one, to take a low blow in a fight.
Yeah.
> I think this, in part, is also why Harry didn't *make* Ron say the
> actual apology. He knew he hadn't acted like a perfect gentleman
> himself...although he probably felt a tiny bit of justification.
Well said. I agree with that.
~Arabella

From: zsenya@s...
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:07 pm
Subject: Re: Ron: prejudices, meanness

In response to Heidi's response to my email:
Well - I was sort of trying to make a point that Ron's statements on
giants and werewolves were no different than someone making a broad
statement about any group of people. We can get into the finer
points by pulling up definitions of words and picking things apart,
but since I only put about 5 minutes of thought into my original
response, and originally meant the first part to appear in a joking
tone of voice, so I don't see any reason to spend an hour tearing it
apart with definitions.
I know that this is going off-topic, and I've already explained once
(check the archives, I've no idea what message number it is - it was
a few months ago), but I want to make it perfectly clear to anyone
who might visit sugarquill.com that Arabella and I started it a) for
fun and b)for convenience, and c) to start a service for writers.
The "Purpose of Existence" was a bit of fun that we composed one
evening and yes, we are up front about what we think in terms of the
Harry Potter books.
> Zsenya, you yourself are listed as a "headmistress" on the
Sugarquill
> site, so it would be a bit disingenuous to now state that things
> which are specifically listed as "purpose[s]" on the Sugarquill
Site
> are, if mentioned by someone who is not part of your "staff",
> prejudiced comments.
I'm not saying that at all. I was, in my original email, simply
pointing out that for some reason, SugarQuill seems particularly, and
rather passive-aggressively targeted and joked about here. I'd like
to keep it friendly.
[snip]
> And why is being a "Sugarquill type" a bad thing. You sound oh so
> defensive in your post, as if She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named's use of that phrase was a
> negative thing.
I don't mind telling you that I'm a bit upset and angry about the
entire tone of your reply, although I'm actually quite flattered that
there is now terminology referring to a "SugarQuill Type" . I'm also
sorry that my original post prompted such a reply, and once again, I
apologize if my original post was considered to be out of line. A big
deal is being made about something that I consider very minor. I
know that I DO sound defensive now, because in my eyes, I have just
been attacked. The SQ affirmations are all in good fun and that
they are in no way meant to discourage discussion. For example, I
have very strong feelings against Draco Malfoy and don't find any
redeeming qualities in the character as he exists in the canon, but
that doesn't stop us from posting stories where Draco turns out to be
cool, nor does it stop Draco fans from posting on our site.
> And not eveyone is so paranoid as to see prejudices where none
exist.
Which is EXACTLY the point I was kind of trying to make, which is
that (to bring this whole discussion back to Ron) one of the
arguments against Ron in recent threads is that he is somehow racist
or prejudiced as a person because he has preconceived notions about
giants, werewolves and house-elves. I was trying to make the point
that I think Ron's initial reactions are perfectly normal. If you
see a guy with a sleeping bag wrapped around himself in front of the
homeless shelter, you assume he is homeless - but you don't assume
he's a terrible person. If you hear that someone is a werewolf, you
might get scared because it's a known fact that in wolf form they
turn into terrible creatures that can physically harm and destroy a
person. If, a bit later, you realize that the wolf is only dangerous
in wolf form, and that the human part of him is trustworthy and
accept that, then, in my eyes, you are not prejudiced, racist, or
mean-spirited. If Ron had called someone a "Mudblood" then I might
feel differently.

Zsenya, who is going to shut up now and retreat back to her Island
for some Tequila, chased down with Blue Moon beer...

From: "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink@h...>
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:49 pm
Subject: Re: Ron: prejudices, meanness

ADVERTISEMENT


I *know* I should stay out of this, but...
Heidi wrote:
"Zsenya, you yourself are listed as a "headmistress" on the
Sugarquill site, so it would be a bit disingenuous to now state that
things which are specifically listed as "purpose[s]" on the
Sugarquill Site are, if mentioned by someone who is not part of
your "staff", prejudiced comments."
Zsenya wrote:
"I'm not saying that at all. I was, in my original email, simply
pointing out that for some reason, SugarQuill seems particularly, and
rather passive-aggressively targeted and joked about here. I'd like
to keep it friendly."
I can't speak for her, but I don't think Heidi was trying to attack
you or your website, Zsenya.
What I do think she was pointing out is that you and others have
repeatedly referred to the SugarQuill site. Why take offense to
She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named's use of the term "SugarQuill" when referring to the
webmistresses when this is how you have described yourself?
That'd be like me taking issue (either joking, seriously, or
sarcastically--shades of emotion are often lost in online discourse)
with someone calling me a teacher, a vocal H/Her, an English grad
student, or even black/African-American. I've used this terminology
to describe myself... and if someone uses it in a way that might
cause me to raise my eyebrows, I let it go.
But again, that's just my third-party take on things.
Zsenya wrote:
"Which is EXACTLY the point I was kind of trying to make, which is
that (to bring this whole discussion back to Ron) one of the
arguments against Ron in recent threads is that he is somehow racist
or prejudiced as a person because he has preconceived notions about
giants, werewolves and house-elves."
Encarta's World English Dictionary has this to say:
1) racism--prejudice or animosity against people who belong to
another race
2) prejudice--a preformed opinion, usually an unfavorable one, based
on insufficient knowledge, irrational feelings, or inaccurate
stereotypes.
Let's use this scenario: say, for instance, 90% of the coverage that
the wizarding news media provides about giants, werewolves, and house-
elves is negative.
You meet a giant, a werewolf, or a house-elf who's not like the ones
that the news media has told you about. You befriend them.
Do you 1) revise your notions of ALL giants, werewolves, or house-
elves? 2) decide to take each individual giant, werewolf, or house-
elf as they come? or 3) decide that the giant, werewolf, or house-
elf that you have met and befriended, who's "not like *them*" is the
exception rather than the rule?
As someone who is from that giant/werewolf/house-elf category in the
Muggle version of the world, I've lived with people who select #3
when dealing with me my entire life, and I absolutely, positively
hate it. As a matter of fact, it is one of the qualities that I
dislike most when I detect it in a person.
So yes, one IS accountable for accepting the societal norm if that
societal norm is morally questionable.
And Ron's having grown up in the wizarding world is no excuse... just
as Draco's having grown up in the Malfoy family doesn't justify his
nastiness either.
Explanation is one thing--justification is quite another.
--Ebony AKA AngieJ

From: heidi <heidi.h.tandy.c92@a...>
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:51 pm
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron: prejudices, meanness
> > And not eveyone is so paranoid as to see prejudices where none
> exist.
>
> Which is EXACTLY the point I was kind of trying to make, which is
> that (to bring this whole discussion back to Ron) one of the
> arguments against Ron in recent threads is that he is somehow racist
> or prejudiced as a person because he has preconceived notions about
> giants, werewolves and house-elves.
There's a difference between holding prejudices and being racist. But they're
both surmountable by someone who wants to overcome them, aren't they?
> I was trying to make the point
> that I think Ron's initial reactions are perfectly normal. If you
> see a guy with a sleeping bag wrapped around himself in front of the
> homeless shelter, you assume he is homeless - but you don't assume
> he's a terrible person. If you hear that someone is a werewolf, you
> might get scared because it's a known fact that in wolf form they
> turn into terrible creatures that can physically harm and destroy a
> person. If, a bit later, you realize that the wolf is only dangerous
> in wolf form, and that the human part of him is trustworthy and
> accept that, then, in my eyes, you are not prejudiced, racist, or
> mean-spirited. If Ron had called someone a "Mudblood" then I might
> feel differently.
Oh, why? Why do you feel that holding beliefs that cause you to use that word
are so much more insurmountable and irreversable than holding beliefs that
werewolves or giants are dangerous or all house elves like their lives?
From: bbennett@j...
Date: Wed Apr 11, 2001 10:42 pm
Subject: Re: reasons for fanfic THE CANON (some SHIP discussions)

--- In HPforGrownups@y..., "Ebony AKA AngieJ" <ebonyink@h...> wrote:
> Original sentiment was this: I can accept the idea of R/H in
future books. What would be weird is if in the first few chapters of
Book 5, He--->R just pops up as if it was there all along.>
I agree. First, if there is going to be R/H, Ron will have to
actually recognize and admit that he's attracted to Hermione <g>.
Starting off with "And Hermione and Ron hooked up over the summer, so
let's go on from there, shall we?" would be unrealistic - and lucky
for us, out of character for JKR.
> First of all, I rather think we haven't seen the last of Krum...
and I do think it's plausible to suggest he'll have a role in the
rest of the narrative.>
I'm wildly curious to know if Hermione goes to Bulgaria. I'm saying
she doesn't, but that's only a feeling (she doesn't go in the stories
I've written - oops, did a plug just slip in there? <g>). If she does
go, I think this would force Ron into a response closer to his true
feelings than his "you can't talk to Krum because he's the enemy!"
line from GoF.
> Second of all, R/H needs to build IMO. If Book 5
> contains He--->R buildup as only JKR can do it, I just may have to
> change sides. (j/k)
Ebony, you know you have closet R/Hr tendencies - just admit it <g>.
I just glanced back over this and I realize it's essentially a "me
too" post. Please excuse me; it's my first day of vacation, and it's
made me a bit giddy.
Best,
B

From: Capn Kathy AKA Elanor Gamgee <elanorgamgee@y...>
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:11 am
Subject: [HPforGrownups] : Ron Sequitors
Why, oh WHY do all the interesting threads come up when my computer isn’t
working? J
Rosmerta wrote:
>The scene in GoF with his dress robes is played for laughs, but it's
>heartwrenching for a teenager to be wearing loser clothes, and
>especially to a big event like the Yule Ball. Yes, he was a jerk at
>the Ball, but why be nice to Padma when, after all, "she didn't look
>to enthusiastic about having Ron as a partner....and her dark eyes
>lingered on the frayed neck and sleeves of his dress robes as she
>looked him up and down." You can bet Ron didn't miss that look.
Oh, what a wonderful observation, Rosmerta! True, Harry doesn’t spend too much
time thinking about how Ron must feel in this situation, but you’re right—you
can bet that Ron notices. Granted, he’s not exactly Mr. Charm with poor Padma,
but she’s not exactly the most accommodating date either, is she? Just thinking
about Ron being stuck in those dress robes, in the Entrance hall, looking for
Hermione…ahhh, poor Ron. Even though he’s a jerk later….poor Ron….
She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
>I'd have to think more to come up with others. But, I think he does go beyond
sarcasm with more frequency in the latter 2 books.
Well, of course he does. He’s a 14 year old boy, experiencing all sorts of
emotions and experiences that he has no idea how to deal with. As Rosmerta
pointed out, you feel things more keenly at 14 than you do at 12. His defense
mechanism is sarcasm (sometimes laced with bitterness)—it only stands to reason
that this would become more pronounced as he has more to be defensive about.
I wrote:>So, that will tell you how I feel about "the youngest and most
>impressive Weasley man."

And She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named responded:
>Can I ask (ever so politely): How is it that Ron (who, the last time I >checked
was still an adolescent boy and not a man) qualifies as the >"most impressive"
of the Weasley males?
This is actually a fanfic quote that I happen to love. It’s from Zsenya’s "At
Diagon Alley" (which is awesome—PLUG!) and I love it because it describes Ron as
he could be (or WILL be, IMO), once he gets a clue. I don’t expect that those
who are not Ron fans will understand this.
She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
>1. In PoA, Harry was more than half-heartedly trying to make up with Hermione.
I don't know where >you get half-heartedly out of the >language in that scene.
He approaches her on his own & quietly >sets about trying to make up with her.
Ron interrupts that with his loud & >mean-spirited comment >about Scabbers.
Sorry, I still don’t buy the idea of Harry’s whole-hearted sincerity here. As
others have pointed out, he willingly participated in giving Hermione the cold
shoulder, and was only willing to make up with her once he got his broomstick
back. When he approaches her in the common room, I don’t deny that he wants to
make up, but it’s not like he’s been pursuing that goal or anything. He sees her
sitting there and approaches her out of guilt. Actually, I would say that his
motivation has more to do with wanting things to be back to normal with his
friends than particularly caring about Hermione’s feelings per se. And Harry
doesn’t exactly go out of his way to try to convince Ron to talk to Hermione
again. That’s where I get half-hearted. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it
again: if I were Hermione, I would be really angry with Harry for not
appreciating what I good friend I had been in a similar situation (his fight
with Ron). Hermione is definitely the bigger person in that particular case, but
we all knew that.
She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named: >Ron watched her go with a mixture of anger & satisfaction on his >face.
*Satisfaction.* He >enjoyed reducing her to tears.
Of course he’s satisfied. He got a rise out of her. He proved to himself that
his opinion mattered to her. There she is, at the ball with another guy, and
he’s still able to get a reaction out of her. Of course he doesn’t realize at
that point why it matters so much. And, as Arabella pointed out, he’s trying to
unpin some of his hurt onto her. Yes, that still makes him a prat. But it
doesn’t make him an evil person who derives pleasure from hurting others.
Arabella wrote:
>Re: Ron - Ron absolutely throws in the comment about Scabbers being eaten, and
IMO it's a deliberate "I hope you feel bad." But I >think he jabs at her because
he too is feeling pretty bad, and he's fishing
>for sympathy and apology. I have to look at his motivation in the context of
the story - it's not just arbitrary meanness.
Exactly! And his motivations are similar here too, I think. He wants to get some
reaction from her that shows she cares. He’s angry over the loss of his pet, but
he’s also hurt. We all know how much he really loves his pets, but won’t admit
it. So he misses Scabbers, but he’s also hurt that someone who matters to him
(though he doesn’t realize exactly how much) would treat him (and Scabbers) the
way she has.
She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote: >Um .... well, we don't know how the hostages were chosen. We don't
know that Hermione wasn't already Krum's hostage >when it came time to decide
who Harry's hostage should be. I really think it was >ultimately a plot device
to be sure that 3 people that >Harry cares about were hostages; I have a very
hard >time thinking that JKR was sending a direct message that Ron is more
important >to Harry than Hermione.
Well, as you probably already know, I strongly disagree on that one. I think
there is plenty of evidence that Ron would be Harry’s thing-he-missed-most over
Hermione any time. But that’s already been argued and argued, so anyone who
wants to go into that can check the archives. What I would like to say, however,
is that I think Hermione would know this—and I don’t think she would be angry or
feel slighted by this, as some have suggested. I think she would be happy for
Ron, I really do.
Of course, the question I enjoy pondering is, who would Ron’s and Hermione’s
hostages have been? ;)
Cap’n Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee
Who is really going to bed now…

From: arabella@s...
Date: Thu Apr 12, 2001 11:23 am
Subject: Re: Ron's stubbornness
eggplant107@h... wrote:
> >I think Ron was going downstairs in the hopes of finding a
> >way back into the friendship (perhaps without a plain old "I'm
> >sorry", probably something more in the way of "Hey, what's up?"
>
> And if Harry refused to accept such a weak attempt at reconciliation
> he would be entirely justified. This was no small thing, Ron in
> effect was saying he no longer trusted Harry, this deserves an
> unambiguous "I'm sorry", although Harry would have settled for less.
Well, I think here we're getting into a more personal decision, and
that is: what kind of apology would you accept vs. what kind of
apology would I accept. In that situation, you'd want a little more;
I'd take any attempt as a sign of things turning around. Both are
perfectly fine and your way can definitely be justified. But the real
question is, what kind of apology would Harry accept? We know the
answer to that. And (IMO) one reason he accepts it so readily is
because, as you said, he knows he wasn't a perfect gentleman himself.
(At least, I think it was you who said that; forgive me if it wasn't.
Too many posts and my brain is fried.) Thus I'm still going with the
idea that there was blame on both ends. Guess we'll have to agree to
disagree.
> >Your wish that an author should "rewrite" her books simply because
> >you did not interpret the written action in the way she intended,
> >is... not a wish that I can > understand.
>
> I don't want her to rewrite the book, I think it's fine the way it
> is, but if she was trying to make Harry look equally responsible for
> the fight (and despite the interview I find it hard to believe she
> was) then she failed.
Again, she failed in your opinion. She succeeded in mine.
> >"Easy going"? Harry chucked a badge at Ron's head and said aloud
> >the words that both of them had been thinking - harsher words
> >between them, I can't find. "You might even have a scar
> > now, if you're lucky...That's what you want, isn't it?"
>
> Ok, you don't have a clue how to fight a dragon but you're about to
> find out, you are about to hear information that could very well
save
> your life but I unintentionally prevent you from hearing it. Would
> you perhaps be a tad upset with me?
Totally. I might even chuck a badge. :) But as I'm not Harry, and as
I'm an objective observer of these events, I have to take some things
into consideration. My natural emotions upon the first read-through
were first to get angry with Harry, and then to sympathize with Ron.
I think JKR gives us a clue that she *wants* us to sympathize with
him, when she paints Ron as a pathetic figure ("But Ron just stood
there in his too-small pajamas" and earlier on he comes downstairs
with "several inches of bare ankle showing beneath his pajama
trousers"). IMO: She's making that scene difficult on us. She's
making Ron pitiable there on purpose. She's pointing out to us that
Ron's got things going on there - that Ron's coming from a very
particular place. And as an objective reader, this reminds me that,
though these books are (almost) entirely from Harry's PoV, yet there
are other characters with unseen PoV who are having complex feelings
of their own and who deserve to be taken into account. Of course we
feel for Harry at that moment, we know *exactly* what he's going
through and so are willing to forgive him his blunt actions. I guess
I'm just willing to make an attempt to understand Ron there as well,
because I think that's really what JKR wanted her readers to do.
~Arabella

From: Capn Kathy AKA Elanor Gamgee <elanorgamgee@y...>
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 1:23 pm
Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] The Ron/Harry Fight; Ron's Prejudice; Percy; & a smidge of ADMIN

She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
>RON/HARRY FIGHT -- I just wanted to add a big "Me
>too" to the thought that Arabella originally voiced
>about how the portrayal of Ron in the common room
>(the night he disrupted the conversation between
>Harry &Sirius) is meant to awaken our sympathies.
Me three, Arabella! (And She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, this just goes to
show that we do still agree on something now and then.
Just when I think it will never happen, something
comes up that we agree on <g>).
She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
>Well, I do think Ron is more than just explaining
>that this is what most wizards think about these
>topics. He's more than an objective >mouthpiece.
"Get away from me, werewolf!"
This particular scene has often been used as a an
example of Ron's prejudiced nature, but I really think
that argument takes it out of context. He's just
discovered what he thinks the be the horrible
"truth"--not that Lupin is a werewolf, but that he
betrayed Ron's best friend. We've already seen how he
reacts when his friends or family are attacked--it
would be out of character for Ron to treat Lupin in
any other way at this point in the scene, IMO. I
realize that other examples have been tossed around,
and I won't address them here, because I essentially
agree with Rosmerta's post saying how Ron is the
"mouthpiece" of the wizarding world in those
instances. Yes, he has preconceived notions. We all
do. He's human. He's 14. He's learning, just like
Harry and Hermione are.
She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named wrote:
>Conversely, no one has yet commented on my ... >ahem
.... *brilliant*(IMHO) analysis of why Harry >clearly
would not favor either of his best friends >over the
other. Sigh. Oh well. I'll just assume >I'm right.

:) Well, it probably won't surprise you that I
completely disagreed with it, but I figured there
wasn't much point in going back over arguments we've
been through a million times before. So there's that
reason for not getting a response too--the "I know
what my opinion is and I'm ready to talk about
something else" reason.
Although it can be a lot of fun when new members bring
up previously discussed topics again, because you get
an infusion of new ideas and arguments. And that's
what makes this list so much fun in the first place.
:)
Cap'n Kathy
AKA Elanor Gamgee

 

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